Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[shinatoo]

I understand that. But the existing retail layout and existing leases need to be changed around to make the plaza a more walkable retail district and there needs to be infill.

This spot for example. That starbucks is basically a suburban stand alone corner lot starbucks. I'm surprised it doesn't have a drive through.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Count ... ?entry=ttu

The parking lot behind it should be developed. All the driveway cuts needs to go away and the gaps filled with something other than driveways.

I agree, the plaza will never be a luxury retail destination again, but I think that's all companies see with the area. The high rents, the history etc but the demographics of KC don't support it. The plaza has like three Ralley houses in it. Speaking of that, an urban target would be better than that Ralley house in the old Halls Building.

Hasn't been a Starbucks for two years.

So it's an empty building on the corner with driveways on both sides an a surface lot behind it. What's your point?

My point is there hasn't been a Starbucks there for two years. I thought that was pretty clear.

[moderne]

I guess the intent of this block was that hiding the parking behind some separated small buildings and a fountain is better than just surface parking and cars visible from the street and sidewalk. This was 119th & Roe of a century ago. Those small buildings on the middle of the west side of the block were not added until late in the 20th century.

[Jblanco]

This block could use a mid to high-rise mixed-use project.
It's completely underdeveloped and the new project could front the entire street.
https://goo.gl/maps/Y6Yom3uGpyCNndZ26

[GRID]

This block could use a mid to high-rise mixed-use project.
It's completely underdeveloped and the new project could front the entire street.
https://goo.gl/maps/Y6Yom3uGpyCNndZ26

That's what I have been saying.

I guess you could try and save some of the existing buildings and incorporate them, at least the fascades and tile roofs.

[beautyfromashes]

These national chains aren’t meant to be in locations long term. They hit big and then fade out and move to a different location. There’s no roots in the location. This is the value you get with local places, they put roots down deep that can last ups and downs. A local developer committed to long term success should be the goal for the Plaza.

[ericwyner]

These national chains aren’t meant to be in locations long term. They hit big and then fade out and move to a different location. There’s no roots in the location. This is the value you get with local places, they put roots down deep that can last ups and downs. A local developer committed to long term success should be the goal for the Plaza.

but who local would be interested, and with local places?

[beautyfromashes]

These national chains aren’t meant to be in locations long term. They hit big and then fade out and move to a different location. There’s no roots in the location. This is the value you get with local places, they put roots down deep that can last ups and downs. A local developer committed to long term success should be the goal for the Plaza.

but who local would be interested, and with local places?

Depends on the price, of course? At the previous cost of $600m, no one. If closer to the actual $200m, I’d guess a lot, if not just for the land value to build a few residential towers on some prime underused lots.

[empires228]

Starbucks should not be there. For decades that was a locally owned charming German cafe---Emile's. Plaza was best when it was a combo of some high end, lots of local, some neighborhood. Target could be the equivalent of what Sears was half a century ago on the Plaza.

I would love to see Target take over most of the former Sears store, or Halls building (they could reclaim the parts of the garage carved out of Halls) and then see a new development on the Nordstrom site that somehow incorporates residential use with a modern movie theater.

Of course, first we have to get past the bank potentially auctioning it off to the likes of Mike Kohan (who is letting three malls in a four hour radius of KC rot pretty badly), or whatever slum owners are holding onto Independence Center and East Hills Mall now that Simon and MD have been free of them for several years.

[langosta]

These national chains aren’t meant to be in locations long term. They hit big and then fade out and move to a different location. There’s no roots in the location. This is the value you get with local places, they put roots down deep that can last ups and downs. A local developer committed to long term success should be the goal for the Plaza.

but who local would be interested, and with local places?

Depends on the price, of course? At the previous cost of $600m, no one. If closer to the actual $200m, I’d guess a lot, if not just for the land value to build a few residential towers on some prime underused lots.

Opposition to building towers on the plaza is soo high that the lane lacks the redevelopment value you think it has. Goodluck getting a bank to buy into that underwriting lol

[beautyfromashes]

Opposition to building towers on the plaza is soo high that the lane lacks the redevelopment value you think it has. Goodluck getting a bank to buy into that underwriting lol

idk, if a new developer announced they wanted to build a residential building as tall as the Lockton building on the former Nordstrom space with streetfront retail, I'm sure most people would go for it. Same for a building on the lot behind H&M. There are a few spaces for some bigger builds. I think even some of the grumpiest Karens and Kens would go for even some more controversial spots if it was connected to some retail that they found beneficial like an urban Target or Trader Joe's grocery store. The current owners just never understood what the community wanted, and the sweetener never covered the bitter.

[langosta]

There is nothing that I could take to a bank or investor to get them on board with believing that high rise development is going to be suddenly allowed on the Plaza. Their due diligence will be filled with NIMBYism (which has been the case for p. Much every Plaza project ever) minus the Lane4 Port KC deal.

Recent Proposals & Developments: Church Tower v. 1, Church Tower v.2, Block Office, Duel Hotel (AC, Cascade)

Recent Proposals & Developments with strong NIMBY: Church Tower v. 1, Church Tower v.2, Block Office, Duel Hotel (AC, Cascade)

[Chris Stritzel]

It's likely you could get significant residential density on the Plaza itself without needing to go high-rise. Depending on how much office space is vacant above the shops, you let those offices go vacant, or condense them, and redevelop. Simultaneously, you propose a new residential and retail development on the Nordstrom site of equal height to the tallest buildings at 48th and Jefferson (8-stories) and design them to fit in well. A project of this height would need a variance since the flawed, restrictive, and downright unnecessary Plaza Bowl regulations forbid anything over 45ft on that parcel, but because the precedent of taller buildings is a few steps away, I think you'd have a great shot at getting approval. It's all about design.

After this, I'd tear down the old movie theater, the Plaza Central parking garage, and the Halls/Apple Store garage and build new buildings with apartments in their places. Plaza Central would be 3-stories maximum, Halls would be 4-stories, movie theater would be 5-6-stories (stepped). All would have designs that fit in well with the Plaza and would enhance the experience. Since the Nordstrom site project would've destroyed the Bowl regulations, getting these approved would be a bit easier on that front.

NIMBYs will always NIMBY, but I guarantee that if you proposed new buildings that honor the Plaza's architectural style well and fall within the rough height ranges of existing things down there, the opposition would be much lower. At that point, Block would become the most vocal against it. Historic KC would also have to be pushed aside in this case. The focus would have to be on winning nearby residents instead of the Blocks or Historic KC.

Bigger apartment projects can be built on the numerous fields that surround the Plaza

[beautyfromashes]

There is nothing that I could take to a bank or investor to get them on board with believing that high rise development is going to be suddenly allowed on the Plaza. Their due diligence will be filled with NIMBYism (which has been the case for p. Much every Plaza project ever) minus the Lane4 Port KC deal.

Recent Proposals & Developments: Church Tower v. 1, Church Tower v.2, Block Office, Duel Hotel (AC, Cascade)

Recent Proposals & Developments with strong NIMBY: Church Tower v. 1, Church Tower v.2, Block Office, Duel Hotel (AC, Cascade)

These were all terrible proposals that gave very little back to the neighborhood. If you want to turn a NIMBY, speak their language. Realize they care about the look of the building as it relates to the Spanish surroundings or at least fill a new need for the neighborhood. Anything tearing down an old church that is in itself very pretty but also is a piece that fits the historic nature of the area is going to face opposition. There is room for new, higher development. You just can't be stupid about it.

[Cratedigger]

There is nothing that I could take to a bank or investor to get them on board with believing that high rise development is going to be suddenly allowed on the Plaza. Their due diligence will be filled with NIMBYism (which has been the case for p. Much every Plaza project ever) minus the Lane4 Port KC deal.

Recent Proposals & Developments: Church Tower v. 1, Church Tower v.2, Block Office, Duel Hotel (AC, Cascade)

Recent Proposals & Developments with strong NIMBY: Church Tower v. 1, Church Tower v.2, Block Office, Duel Hotel (AC, Cascade)

These were all terrible proposals that gave very little back to the neighborhood. If you want to turn a NIMBY, speak their language. Realize they care about the look of the building as it relates to the Spanish surroundings or at least fill a new need for the neighborhood. Anything tearing down an old church that is in itself very pretty but also is a piece that fits the historic nature of the area is going to face opposition. There is room for new, higher development. You just can't be stupid about it.

Agreed, but even proposals that cater to this still face resistance.

For instance, the original proposal for the 4711 Belleview project

[beautyfromashes]

I don’t remember much opposition to that project but, let’s be honest, every single project that is proposed will get sone pushback. People think that even the best building can be made better and will complain about minute details. It’s a negotiation. The Plaza seems pretty straightforward;
- Don’t build in the center so it blocks the Christmas light views.
-Don’t tear down something historic.
-Quality materials, preferably in a “Spanish style”.
-Streetfront retail that is something beneficial to the neighborhood.

[FangKC]

One of the primary mistakes all developers of dense projects make is that they fail to educate the neighborhood, and general public, on why these projects are needed, and why change is necessary.

City leadership fails on this as well.

[FangKC]

CityScene says it’s good to go and they will be doing this development on the church site now. Council expected to fully approve today.

https://cityscenekc.com/plaza-restauran ... 6-opening/

Hallowed Ground Coffee Shop inside Reynolds Club's Hutchinson Commons food hall at the University of Chicago. Space has a similar vibe to a church interior. It's too bad someone didn't come up with a similar food hall concept for that church at 47th and Pennsylvania. I think we are going to regret losing it someday.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cu6_Sez ... iNWFlZA==

https://architecture.uchicago.edu/locat ... ndel_hall/

https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/w ... is-amazing

Location:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7914348 ... ?entry=ttu

[FangKC]

The Country Club Plaza is in trouble. How can Kansas City fix it? Take our survey | Opinion

...
So if the action really is moving elsewhere and the Country Club Plaza is at the brink, what can pull it back? It’s a given that its face today is radically different from the district that opened for business 100 years ago. Its Spanish-influenced architecture, central location and historical pedigree continue to make it a touchstone destination — for now. But what changes need to happen to keep people coming back? The Plaza is too important to wither away. Take our reader survey here. We’ll summarize your best suggestions for the center’s owners and tenants, and our city leaders.
...

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/edi ... BVH5IamLu4

Survey.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... A/viewform

[GRID]

Ran across this photo thread and while there are some great pics, they show just how unnecessarily wide the streets are in KC, especially the plaza area.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showth ... p?t=251056

[smh]

Ran across this photo thread and while there are some great pics, they show just how unnecessarily wide the streets are in KC, especially the plaza area.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showth ... p?t=251056

GRID this is a great set of photos, thanks for sharing the link. Makes me a little wistful. And I agree the streets are so wide.