Is Midtown Marketplace one of the city's greatest blunders?

[Chris Stritzel]

It's clear to me that people are challenged by this latest UrbanLab proposal to improve KC. It's not hard to realize a few points.
1. Midtown Marketplace was a product of its time and served the purpose of removing a blighted neighborhood in favor of something that generated more tax revenue than the blight did.
2. It was a way to bring shoppers, and sales tax dollars, back into Midtown after years of decline (which this did).
3. Today, it's showing its age with excessive amounts of parking and a TIF that'll expire in the coming years leaving the debate open of whether or not Home Depot and Costco will remain. Neither party, nor any of the businesses on site, has indicated what they'll be doing there when the TIF ends. McDonalds is the only business located there that's attempting to double-down on remaining. Costco is also removing their bakery to stay up to date.
4. In a future Midtown KC, when Home Depot, Costco, or both, decides to close or condense their parking as a way to make some money and become a better part of the neighborhood, the UrbanLab idea comes into play as a way of demonstrating proper land usage.
5. People defending a multinational corporation like it's your neighborhood mom and pop hardware store are laughable. You'd rather have a business that knocked tons of local shops out of business in favor of a large parking lot because of "convenience" when an idea like UrbanLab is presenting would more likely than not bring a local hardware store back into the mix.
6. Midtown Marketplace's tax revenue generation is poor for the amount of land it takes up. If Costco and Home Depot decided to sell portions of their parking lots, and you could get some parcels on Main and Linwood developed into higher usages, the tax revenue generated would skyrocket benefiting the city's taxing jurisdictions and the Streetcar system.

You can appreciate Home Depot's location for convenience while also realizing that it's a blight of its own. Costco and all the other businesses at Midtown Marketplace are the same. The clientele that drives in and out of there have no regard for anyone but those in a car (and even then, such courtesy is spotty). If you want the convenience of having an auto-centric plaza with a Home Depot, Costco, McDonalds and other suburban things in it, I know real estate agents have tons of houses for sale in the suburbs.

If this were proposed today, it would be forbidden from being approved and would never have a TIF approved. Some users on social media websites are crazy to believe it would be approved under the same terms and it's ridiculous to think that things should remain the same way that they are today.

Think long-term, not short-term. This is no pie-in-the-sky idea. It can easily be real if the conditions are right (and they will be).

People are way overthinking this and acting like it's a real proposal when it's not. Calm down. When it one day becomes a real proposal (because it will) I imagine opposition will be minimal to non-existent because people who can't imagine life without Home Depot will have either moved away or, if they're old now, kicked the bucket.

[DaveKCMO]

Midtown Marketplace was a product of its time and served the purpose of removing a blighted neighborhood in favor of something that generated more tax revenue than the blight did.

After accounting for the TIF (2 years remain), I don't think this is a given. This 2022 TIF report doesn't (and can't) calculate what the EATs or taxes would have been if the original buildings, land uses, and tenants would have remained constant for 23 years.

ESTIMATED INCREASE IN TAX GENERATION:
Original Assessed Value of the Redevelopment Project:
$1,161,075.00
Assessed Valuation Added to the Redevelopment Project:
$7,902,925.00
Anticipated Assessed Value at Time of District Termination:
$7,700,000.00
Total Amount of Base Year EATs:
$356,556.00
Total Amount of Base Year PILOTs:
$0.00
Total Annual EATs Anticipated at Time of District Termination:
$52,337,421.00
Total Annual PILOTs Anticipated at Time of District Termination:
$0.00
Percentage of EATs Captured:
50%
Total Years Anticipated to Capture EATs:
23
Percentage of PILOTs Captured:
100%
Total Years Anticipated to Capture PILOTs:
23

In fact, it could be argued that many of the original structures would have gentrified without being demolished. It's certainly debatable that this development was the only factor that gentrified the area or that the housing improvements could have occurred without the TIF-funded program. A focused effort on downzoning (Old Hyde Park), city-backed displacement on Armour, and overall increased demand for housing was probably going to happen, especially if you assume the streetcar would have happened without Midtown Marketplace existing. As the instigator of the extension, I can tell you I would have done that anyway.

[beautyfromashes]

If you want the convenience of having an auto-centric plaza with a Home Depot, Costco, McDonalds and other suburban things in it, I know real estate agents have tons of houses for sale in the suburbs.

Maybe it’s easier for big developers like yourself to do projects where supplies are dropped on site and contractors run for supplies, but I’ve done 10 historic homes as side projects in Midtown now and I couldn’t/wouldn’t have done them without that Home Depot. The TiF provided funds when no one else was even thinking about Midtown and as much as I like Ace or Sutherlands, they just wouldn’t cut it. So, yeah, it gets a little loyalty from me because it was there when no one else was. The TIF provided funds that I didn’t really have at the beginning. And, sure, it’s aging and worn now and there are better versions out there but maybe I see myself in that too. So, I’m in no hurry to push them out and start imagining a future where they just disappear. Opinions can vary.

[Chris Stritzel]

If you want the convenience of having an auto-centric plaza with a Home Depot, Costco, McDonalds and other suburban things in it, I know real estate agents have tons of houses for sale in the suburbs.

Maybe it’s easier for big developers like yourself to do projects where supplies are dropped on site and contractors run for supplies, but I’ve done 10 historic homes as side projects in Midtown now and I couldn’t/wouldn’t have done them without that Home Depot. The TiF provided funds when no one else was even thinking about Midtown and as much as I like Ace or Sutherlands, they just wouldn’t cut it. So, yeah, it gets a little loyalty from me because it was there when no one else was. The TIF provided funds that I didn’t really have at the beginning. And, sure, it’s aging and worn now and there are better versions out there but maybe I see myself in that too. So, I’m in no hurry to push them out and start imagining a future where they just disappear. Opinions can vary.

I’m not a big developer. I’ve experimented with such and have found it less fun to work on.

The things my family and I have done in St. Louis were done 95% of the time without ever stepping foot inside of a Home Depot, Lowe’s, and Menards. Appliances were almost always bought from a local dealer, paint would come from a Sherwin-Williams store, cabinetry would be custom built by a family friend, and things like drywall, plumbing, and flooring were done by others who never used a big box store. The only time we had to go into a place like Home Depot was if our old Sears Tools broke.

Good for you for renovating 10 houses, that’s no small task. That deserves applause and I’ll give you that. I agree with everything else in your post too, but you have the defenders of the Costco and Home Depot like they’re some sort of holy grail given to us by Christ himself.

We gotta create big ideas that set the tone for what KC will be like in 25 years. Do we want the city to remain as it is today in 25 years or do we want a more dense urban core to help with city finances elsewhere? Midtown Marketplace, the GMC dealership, the now demolished funeral home on Linwood, and KC Life’s fields west of Pennsylvania are all pieces in the midtown puzzle.

We can agree to disagree, but remember to make no small plans.

[horizons82]

5. People defending a multinational corporation like it's your neighborhood mom and pop hardware store are laughable. You'd rather have a business that knocked tons of local shops out of business in favor of a large parking lot because of "convenience" when an idea like UrbanLab is presenting would more likely than not bring a local hardware store back into the mix.

Okay...maybe tone back the condescension a little lol. The only defense of HD is that it offers a wide variety of goods and lumber at far better pricing than small-scale hardware stores. I shop at both when working on a personal project, but there's no denying that, on average, big box stores like HD and Lowe's are able to offer lower price points because of their scale.

6. Midtown Marketplace's tax revenue generation is poor for the amount of land it takes up. If Costco and Home Depot decided to sell portions of their parking lots, and you could get some parcels on Main and Linwood developed into higher usages, the tax revenue generated would skyrocket benefiting the city's taxing jurisdictions and the Streetcar system.

If you want Costco & HD to give up their land, there will have to be something in it for them.

You can appreciate Home Depot's location for convenience while also realizing that it's a blight of its own. Costco and all the other businesses at Midtown Marketplace are the same. The clientele that drives in and out of there have no regard for anyone but those in a car (and even then, such courtesy is spotty). If you want the convenience of having an auto-centric plaza with a Home Depot, Costco, McDonalds and other suburban things in it, I know real estate agents have tons of houses for sale in the suburbs.

I don't think this urban gatekeeping re: brands, is helpful. It's an issue of form and density, not whether they're a chain or independent. If board members are serious about making the Rivermarket-Plaza corridor more desirable to reside in, you should be receptive to chains co-existing alongside the boutique stuff. Diversity of types of retail = diversity of residents & incomes. Cities far more potent than KC like Chicago, DC, and LA have figured it out in their urban cores.

People are way overthinking this and acting like it's a real proposal when it's not. Calm down.

People seemed pretty calm about it... The whole post was a thought exercise, right? If it's done its job people will give feedback, which they did. What good does a circle jerk of praise do on a discussion forum?

[beautyfromashes]

Good for you for renovating 10 houses, that’s no small task. That deserves applause and I’ll give you that. I agree with everything else in your post too, but you have the defenders of the Costco and Home Depot like they’re some sort of holy grail given to us by Christ himself.

I'm not saying that. I know how they are totally anti-urban in their design and how they destroyed the building stock for that land. To say otherwise would be revisionist. And, of course, in 25 years the market for those products could be totally different and a total redo warranted. There just seem like so many parcels that need wholesale change right now. The car dealership and that corner you mentioned is a prime example. The massive 10+ story that's dying at Linwood and Troost (811 E Linwood?). Dozens of others. Costco and Home Depot are businesses that are actually bringing people into Midtown, two of very few retailers. I'm just not sure why that's the focus.

My final old Home Depot warm fuzzy story: In 1999, I went on a humanitarian aid mission to Africa with a small group of friends. We were going to build small housing and give small scale medical aid. I went into Home Depot because I needed a whole set of electrical tools for the trip. I talked to the manager and told him the details of the trip and asked him for a small discount on a full Dewalt 18V set. It was top of the line back then. He GAVE it to me. $999 for free. So, I'll always shop there first, always.

[FangKC]

Here's an example in Pittsburgh of a big box Target store where the store is above the parking lot. It's not downtown Pittsburgh, but it's an urban section with some density. There is a city bus terminal within walking distance.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4603083 ... ?entry=ttu

Entrance to the garage under the store.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4612625 ... ?entry=ttu

Aeriala of location.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4659479 ... ?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4646662 ... ?entry=ttu

This seems a nice compromise between what we have now with the HD and solves the issue of people carrying materials out of the store some distance to a garage. In this instance, the HD could have freight elevators to lower people to the parking area. There could still be a ground-level section to sell nursery items. The same could be done with Costco. The HD parking lot is already below the grade of Linwood and Main. The store could have walk-up entrances on both Linwood and Main making it easier on pedestrians using transit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0677395 ... ?entry=ttu

Now, let's go back to Pittsburgh. There is a Home Depot very close to the Target I featured. Look at the difference in the footprint each store has.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.468261 ... ?entry=ttu

Here's an urban Aldi store with NO parking lot! There is garage parking behind the store in another building.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alleg ... ?entry=ttu

[FangKC]

I'd like to see UrbanLab do the same redevelopment proposal for the Main/Linwood NW intersection corner up to 31st Street and over to Wyandotte.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/On+Ma ... ?entry=ttu

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I'd like to see UrbanLab do the same redevelopment proposal for the Main/Linwood NW intersection corner up to 31st Street and over to Wyandotte.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/On+Ma ... ?entry=ttu

Are you talking just the USPS site? Or the entire square block? We’ve got some things in the work for the near future, but after that we could definitely explore

[beautyfromashes]

I'd like to see UrbanLab do the same redevelopment proposal for the Main/Linwood NW intersection corner up to 31st Street and over to Wyandotte.

Are you talking just the USPS site? Or the entire square block? We’ve got some things in the work for the near future, but after that we could definitely explore

I'd love this as well. There are so many questions with that piece of land:

• Do you reinstate the street grid?

• How do you handle Wyandotte and it's connection to 35 Highway?

• There are some unique, older properties on site like the former ice house building. How do you purpose those?

• How do you plan for the dramatic changes in grade from Main and 31st St down to Wyandotte?

• How do you connect the larger neighborhoods to the south to Penn Valley Park through this property?

Also, this is the start of the St. Patricks Day parade every year and the Irish Cultural Center is across the street. Some Irish-themed painted crosswalks might be nice.

[FangKC]

I'd like to see UrbanLab do the same redevelopment proposal for the Main/Linwood NW intersection corner up to 31st Street and over to Wyandotte.

Are you talking just the USPS site? Or the entire square block? We’ve got some things in the work for the near future, but after that we could definitely explore

I'm talking about everything from 31st Street on the north to Linwood on the south and everything between Main west to Wyandotte.

[FangKC]

I'd like to see UrbanLab do the same redevelopment proposal for the Main/Linwood NW intersection corner up to 31st Street and over to Wyandotte.

Are you talking just the USPS site? Or the entire square block? We’ve got some things in the work for the near future, but after that we could definitely explore

I'd love this as well. There are so many questions with that piece of land:

• Do you reinstate the street grid?

• How do you handle Wyandotte and it's connection to 35 Highway?

• There are some unique, older properties on site like the former ice house building. How do you purpose those?

• How do you plan for the dramatic changes in grade from Main and 31st St down to Wyandotte?

• How do you connect the larger neighborhoods to the south to Penn Valley Park through this property?

Also, this is the start of the St. Patricks Day parade every year and the Irish Cultural Center is across the street. Some Irish-themed painted crosswalks might be nice.

Yes, reinstate the street grid. Here's how I imagine it. I didn't draw in alleys that might be needed.

Retain the Ice House building. Leave the apartment building on the NE corner of Linwood and Wyandotte, and the commercial building to the east. Retain commercial building on the SW corner of 31st and Main.

Rebuild Baltimore on a sloping grade south from 31st and back up to Linwood. Construct building to adapt to the slope. Drop in grade from 31st would allow for parking garages under buildings there.

Retain the ornate facade of the Global Orphan Project building and incorporate it in a new structure as entrance.

[TheLastGentleman]

Retain the ornate facade of the Global Orphan Project building and incorporate it in a new structure as entrance.

I had no idea this existed. Probably used to be even more ornate than what’s left

[TheLastGentleman]

[herrfrank]

Build a Costco on top of the Home Depot, you say? Well, it WOULD be increased density. So to speak. Plus it would free up some additional room for other things.

There would have to be some sort of freight elevator arrangement for movement of goods in and out, since everything wouldn't be on ground level any more.

Maybe stack a Super Target on top of both of them while we're at it?

There could be some sort of service to do deliveries, like UberShops or something. You could either shop the store in person or online, pay for goods, and then have them delivered to your home. UberShops could work out something with TargetCostHome so that you could scan everything into an app on your phone, create a QR-coded order, and send it to your Uber. The Uber person could then meet the store staff at the dock. The store staff then scans the QR code that the app sent them on your authorization which tells them what to load. The Uber person delivers to your home at a time of your choosing. Much better than pushing a buggy around and schlepping your stuff all over the store.

Costco has a little food court in the front. Come to think of it, Target has something like this too. The Target near me serves personal pan pizzas from Pizza Hut. Also has popcorn, etc. Across from it on the other side of the front door is a mini-Starbucks, because the space was just sitting there, and Starbucks abhors a vacuum. Point is, there could be somewhere to eat in the TargetCostHome, too.

This all seems familiar, somehow. I think there used to be a place like this in downtown KC, a long time ago.

LOL

What is sad is it wasn't that long ago. In 1980 all of this stuff was intact -- Midtown Marketplace was still Warner Plaza and Miltons Jazz Club. Macy's Downtown was STILL OPEN for business. The Law building; the Bryant Building, and almost every other downtown building was still standing.

The period from 1985 until 1995 was when Shiva took over, and the gods of destruction ruled KC. And I don't blame Mayor Cleaver nor his predecessor Mayor Berkley. They were both pro-preservation and still stay so today. I don't understand how that confluence of demolition minds happened (it wasn't the local architectural community; they were appalled).

[chaglang]

I'd like to see UrbanLab do the same redevelopment proposal for the Main/Linwood NW intersection corner up to 31st Street and over to Wyandotte.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/On+Ma ... ?entry=ttu

That would be great. The Midtown Marketplace and Plaza pedestrian mall ideas have been done to death. No points for shiny graphics of old ideas.