OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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Cratedigger wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:29 am Does Big Taxi really still hold sway?
Just try waiving at me through the gap and see what happens.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by dev49 »

Oakland is old and outdated. Reminds me of terminal 1 in STL. I think I read OAK is looking at building a new terminal also.

As Dave says, LAS depends what terminal you are in the southwest one isn’t very nice but one of the newer ones I really liked. It had an interesting 2 or 3 story atrium.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by langosta »

langosta wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:58 am
GRID wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:48 am Right but even then the most you will get out of KCI is maybe some money to help build a stop there. Like a few million for a 1-2 billion dollar project.
expansions like the Silver Line would now be eligible for PFCs, typically by estimating what percentage of ridership would use the airport stop and prorating costs accordingly.

From the same article.

But does KCI have any charging capacity available? Answer is likely not.They applied to charge the max PFF until 2057. Now increased revenues from non-aviation sources or increased passenger traffic would lead to a decrease in the PFC needed for the terminal and runways.
Thought about this more. Airport can likely pay for a significant piece of this rail line. Partner that with a 30-50% federal March, reduced cost per mile, and I can see how KCMO thinks this is going to be financeable.

As claimed on the board, existing route adjacent ridership is low which would qualify most of the project cost for airport funds. Yet, we still have an opportunity to drive denser development along the route in later years. It’s a win win if the airport has a way to raise funds.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by TheLastGentleman »

This might be getting too abstract, but I’m an advocate for airport rail connectors because it essentially builds the airport into downtown. The great train stations of the US used to be generally located in or near downtowns, which was great because it gave locals a central location to arrive and depart from, and it was great for visitors because they arrive in the heart of the city. It was also just one more item that was essential for a central city.

However, airports are so often far from downtowns, and so offering a permanent central hub from which to reach them without needing a car strikes me as very important. Whenever I’ve taken rail to and from airports in other cities it’s always been a positive experience
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by smh »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:56 am This might be getting too abstract, but I’m an advocate for airport rail connectors because it essentially builds the airport into downtown. The great train stations of the US used to be generally located in or near downtowns, which was great because it gave locals a central location to arrive and depart from, and it was great for visitors because they arrive in the heart of the city. It was also just one more item that was essential for a central city.

However, airports are so often far from downtowns, and so offering a permanent central hub from which to reach them without needing a car strikes me as very important. Whenever I’ve taken rail to and from airports in other cities it’s always been a positive experience
This is a good take and one I don't think has been raised here before.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Highlander »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:56 am This might be getting too abstract, but I’m an advocate for airport rail connectors because it essentially builds the airport into downtown. The great train stations of the US used to be generally located in or near downtowns, which was great because it gave locals a central location to arrive and depart from, and it was great for visitors because they arrive in the heart of the city. It was also just one more item that was essential for a central city.

However, airports are so often far from downtowns, and so offering a permanent central hub from which to reach them without needing a car strikes me as very important. Whenever I’ve taken rail to and from airports in other cities it’s always been a positive experience
KCI was placed in one of the least developed parts of the metro at the time it was built. Had it been built elsewhere, like perhaps just east of Independence or SW of Olathe, rail would have made sense by now because there are major population centers along the way to serve other than just an airport that isn't really all that busy compared to others around the US. But the airport has not created enough of a (or the right kind of) boost in development in the northland and the area is so disjointed that it's difficult to justify light rail. And the I-29 corridor is not dense. KC has never been able to get past planning everything for the automobile; the location of KCI and even the design of the original terminals were all supremely autocentric.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

I, too, used the new KCI for the first time this past weekend and it was such an upgrade not only over the old one but over every other airport we flew through.

My only complaint is the signage. I don't think I've ever been in an airport and not known exactly where I needed to go and that happened twice in KCI. There's no sign at the end of the hall to B so you have to walk around the food court to know if your gate is left or right (unless I totally missed something). At baggage claim, you're supposed to keep moving at the bottom of the escalator but the sign to know what belt your flight is on is immediately above the doors telling you to not stop moving so crowding and people wandering not knowing to go left or right is inevitable right there. Easy problems to solve, though.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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TheBigChuckbowski wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:33 am I, too, used the new KCI for the first time this past weekend and it was such an upgrade not only over the old one but over every other airport we flew through.

My only complaint is the signage. I don't think I've ever been in an airport and not known exactly where I needed to go and that happened twice in KCI. There's no sign at the end of the hall to B so you have to walk around the food court to know if your gate is left or right (unless I totally missed something). At baggage claim, you're supposed to keep moving at the bottom of the escalator but the sign to know what belt your flight is on is immediately above the doors telling you to not stop moving so crowding and people wandering not knowing to go left or right is inevitable right there. Easy problems to solve, though.
I can't remember on that first point if there is or not so referenced a pic I took and the only one is after you've made a choice to go right or left of City Market. There are signs on both sides that point to gates in both directions so guess you could doubleback if you picked the wrong way but not a lot. Couldn't hurt to have another sign earlier.

on the 2nd point that is a great thought I hadn't realized. That baggage claim sign isn't in a great place. I wonder if one before the exit doors would be good in addition to one further away. The baggage signs are also above the help desk digitally (at least they were when I took a pic, below)

To add onto signage I find the curb pole wayfinding confusing. See the pic below. The curb #s make sense but then mix in the letters and doing the summarization (K-N, etc) seems confusing. Maybe I'm just bad at my alphabet but I always look at that sign and have to start at A, B, C, D...
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by GRID »

langosta wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:55 pm
langosta wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:58 am
GRID wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:48 am Right but even then the most you will get out of KCI is maybe some money to help build a stop there. Like a few million for a 1-2 billion dollar project.
expansions like the Silver Line would now be eligible for PFCs, typically by estimating what percentage of ridership would use the airport stop and prorating costs accordingly.

From the same article.

But does KCI have any charging capacity available? Answer is likely not.They applied to charge the max PFF until 2057. Now increased revenues from non-aviation sources or increased passenger traffic would lead to a decrease in the PFC needed for the terminal and runways.
Thought about this more. Airport can likely pay for a significant piece of this rail line. Partner that with a 30-50% federal March, reduced cost per mile, and I can see how KCMO thinks this is going to be financeable.

As claimed on the board, existing route adjacent ridership is low which would qualify most of the project cost for airport funds. Yet, we still have an opportunity to drive denser development along the route in later years. It’s a win win if the airport has a way to raise funds.
Where is this track or right of way people are talking about? I assume this is not the same corridor that has been studied for past light rail proposals which follows the Line Creek valley.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by langosta »

GRID wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:16 pm
langosta wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:55 pm
langosta wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:58 am

expansions like the Silver Line would now be eligible for PFCs, typically by estimating what percentage of ridership would use the airport stop and prorating costs accordingly.

From the same article.

But does KCI have any charging capacity available? Answer is likely not.They applied to charge the max PFF until 2057. Now increased revenues from non-aviation sources or increased passenger traffic would lead to a decrease in the PFC needed for the terminal and runways.
Thought about this more. Airport can likely pay for a significant piece of this rail line. Partner that with a 30-50% federal March, reduced cost per mile, and I can see how KCMO thinks this is going to be financeable.

As claimed on the board, existing route adjacent ridership is low which would qualify most of the project cost for airport funds. Yet, we still have an opportunity to drive denser development along the route in later years. It’s a win win if the airport has a way to raise funds.
Where is this track or right of way people are talking about? I assume this is not the same corridor that has been studied for past light rail proposals which follows the Line Creek valley.
I have heard it is a combination of Line Creek Valley row, KCAD owned land, i29 ROW, etc
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by smh »

langosta wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:44 pm
GRID wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:16 pm
langosta wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:55 pm

Thought about this more. Airport can likely pay for a significant piece of this rail line. Partner that with a 30-50% federal March, reduced cost per mile, and I can see how KCMO thinks this is going to be financeable.

As claimed on the board, existing route adjacent ridership is low which would qualify most of the project cost for airport funds. Yet, we still have an opportunity to drive denser development along the route in later years. It’s a win win if the airport has a way to raise funds.
Where is this track or right of way people are talking about? I assume this is not the same corridor that has been studied for past light rail proposals which follows the Line Creek valley.
I have heard it is a combination of Line Creek Valley row, KCAD owned land, i29 ROW, etc
Somebody gin us up a sketch!
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:00 pm I can't remember on that first point if there is or not so referenced a pic I took and the only one is after you've made a choice to go right or left of City Market. There are signs on both sides that point to gates in both directions so guess you could doubleback if you picked the wrong way but not a lot. Couldn't hurt to have another sign earlier.
Right, it's not a huge deal if you pick wrong. It's just weird to be in an airport and not know what direction I'm supposed to go because there wasn't a single sign telling me. And, all they need is a small sign at the end of the hall before City Market with whatever gates are left and whatever gates are right.
KCPowercat wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:00 pm on the 2nd point that is a great thought I hadn't realized. That baggage claim sign isn't in a great place. I wonder if one before the exit doors would be good in addition to one further away. The baggage signs are also above the help desk digitally (at least they were when I took a pic, below)
Thanks for the pic! I think just having the signs say which airlines are left and which airlines are right should be on there. Put the specific baggage claim number on a sign after making the turn. I honestly didn't even notice that the airline logos were on that sign when I was looking at it, I was just looking for my flight, which was very hard to find quickly.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by KCPowercat »

Just picked someone up. Friday afternoon is a busier pickup time.

* No backup outside of arrivals
* lots of "officers" inside of arrivals. I counted at least 8 but of those 8, 6 were controlling traffic at the crosswalks, 2 were waving the 4th lane through, not one was getting people moving from the curb lane. The first lane was almost all the way full and 80% of those cars were not actively loading with I'd say 50% of them literally out of their cars. Why are we so scared to move these people? I blocked them in and picked up and left no problem just silly.
* need to probably hold the pedestrians a little more than they do, you know me I'm ped first but having them wait 30 seconds and queue up isn't horrible. They seem to close down traffic at the site of 2 peds even if they just opened it back up.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by FlippantCitizen »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:58 pm
This is a good article. This quote made me laugh too.

“ In an interview in early June, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg acknowledged the problem, but he offered no solutions except the need to study it further.”

I hope there is an environmental review before the study.
I know, that quote had me in stitches. Pete is a scion of what I’m talking about. All the right resume boxes checked, but completely uninterested in exercising power. Would rather outsource a study back to his homies at McKinsey than put words into action.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:21 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:58 pm
This is a good article. This quote made me laugh too.

“ In an interview in early June, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg acknowledged the problem, but he offered no solutions except the need to study it further.”

I hope there is an environmental review before the study.
I know, that quote had me in stitches. Pete is a scion of what I’m talking about. All the right resume boxes checked, but completely uninterested in exercising power. Would rather outsource a study back to his homies at McKinsey than put words into action.
Pete has very little power over these things. They nominally report to him, but they all serve at the pleasure of the president with the advice and consent of the senate.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by FlippantCitizen »

WoodDraw wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:50 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:21 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:58 pm

This is a good article. This quote made me laugh too.

“ In an interview in early June, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg acknowledged the problem, but he offered no solutions except the need to study it further.”

I hope there is an environmental review before the study.
I know, that quote had me in stitches. Pete is a scion of what I’m talking about. All the right resume boxes checked, but completely uninterested in exercising power. Would rather outsource a study back to his homies at McKinsey than put words into action.
Pete has very little power over these things. They nominally report to him, but they all serve at the pleasure of the president with the advice and consent of the senate.
I call BS on that. He’s a cabinet level official with a massive portfolio. He has a ton of power not only because of his title but because of his place as a young up and comer in the party. By your logic, why even have a cabinet? If he wanted to be more aggressive on a program of solving problems related to transportation and infrastructure issues he could be mounting a campaign from within his own department to do so. The guy is more interested in backslapping about one bill he did some PR for and ribbon cutting ceremonies, and of course what his next title will be. Personally I think he’s feckless and exemplary of why we can’t build anything anymore.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by missingkc »

So, who's the last person in his position that accomplished what you're accusing Buttigieg of not accomplishing? And what were the lasting accomplishments? I don't know. Just curious, cause I think you must know. Thanks.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by FlippantCitizen »

I’m not necessarily so sour on Buttigieg in particular but honestly just a lack of seriousness in government in general. We’ve had major crises related to our transportation infrastructure in recent years. Mass flight cancellations, logistical crises at ports, freight rail issues including derailments and a chemical spill. Also a massive threat of strike in which the administration caved to the detriment of labor, which is annoying to my personal politics.

To the extent I’m unimpressed with Buttigieg, it’s because he’s seen as being near the top of the democratic bench and given the many notable issues in his portfolio I haven’t seen many strong showing from him rhetorically or in action. The quote from the article noted earlier is just a good embodiment for me that he’s not actually that serious. And my personal annoyance with him is probably mostly due to how some parts of the media try to push him as some kind of rising wunderkind. That’s just a personal opinion that’s outside of the scope of the original article I linked or the topic of this thread. I apologize for getting a little far afield.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by langosta »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:27 pm I’m not necessarily so sour on Buttigieg in particular but honestly just a lack of seriousness in government in general. We’ve had major crises related to our transportation infrastructure in recent years. Mass flight cancellations, logistical crises at ports, freight rail issues including derailments and a chemical spill. Also a massive threat of strike in which the administration caved to the detriment of labor, which is annoying to my personal politics.

To the extent I’m unimpressed with Buttigieg, it’s because he’s seen as being near the top of the democratic bench and given the many notable issues in his portfolio I haven’t seen many strong showing from him rhetorically or in action. The quote from the article noted earlier is just a good embodiment for me that he’s not actually that serious. And my personal annoyance with him is probably mostly due to how some parts of the media try to push him as some kind of rising wunderkind. That’s just a personal opinion that’s outside of the scope of the original article I linked or the topic of this thread. I apologize for getting a little far afield.
We already know the 3 biggest causes of increased costs and delays for US infrastructure vs. overseas. The first point is strongly support by both parties and the later two are strong supported by Buttigieg's. It takes someone willing to toe outside party bounds, upset their boss, or forgoe a future political career.

- Buy America
- Overstaffed Union Labor
- Required Enviromental Studies & Impact Reports
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by shinatoo »

I rather our government study a problem we don't understand and develop a workable plan, rather than just making an assumption and start throwing money at it.
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