OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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WoodDraw
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

I don't think anyone is against an express airport bus. From discussions before, that was the plan.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by langosta »

GRID wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:47 pm
langosta wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 pm
GRID wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:14 pm

The main reason it should be five miles closer is so they could have designed everything from the ground up including all the road infrastructure leading to and from the terminal and making it much easier and more feasible to build transit to the the terminal.

That ship as sailed though. So next thing they really need to do is get a people mover installed to the RCF and economy parking lots. That and a proper bus line to downtown.
I would imagine APM is on hold while Lucas pursues rail to the airport
Pretty sure the APM is something the airport alone is pursing and it would be funded with airport generated fees/revenue. The airport will not be funding any part of a rail line to downtown. Why do you think most airports in the USA that do have rail connections are so poorly designed and integrated with the airport? It's just not in their best interest to do so. Parking revenue is a huge part of their revenue and even if rail did exist, it would likely only be used by less than 5% of KCI air travelers. So the ROI is not there for KCI.

R
Because airports were not allowed to use airport funds for true rail until very very recently. Now airports can fund their share of a rail transit line

https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3v5j3/ ... ppy-trains

In 1990, Congress passed the Aviation Safety and Capacity Expansion Act of 1990 which allowed airports, with the FAA's permission, to charge a small Passenger Facility Fee (PFC)—initially a maximum of $3 per ticket, later upped to $4.50 and, like the federal gas tax, not increased in the 20 years since despite losing much of its value to inflation—for airport improvements. The statute allows the revenue to be used for specific types of internal airport improvements only, such as people movers that stay within airport grounds. And in 2004 the FAA clarified that only rail lines which exclusively serve airports are eligible for PFCs.

In the United States, getting funding for mass transit projects is hard enough as it is, so PFCs offered airports and the cities they're in a workaround to creating mass transit connections, if not a direct link to city centers. As long as airports built their own, separate rail line that operated mostly inside airport territory—or, in theory, built a mass transit expansion with no intermediate stops that terminated at the airport—they could use airline ticket surcharges to pay for, at the very least, a good chunk of the project. This is why city governments in particular tend to love these trains to the trains, because it takes most of the funding load off their backs and they get to brag about having a mass transit connection to their airport.
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GRID
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by GRID »

Right but even then the most you will get out of KCI is maybe some money to help build a stop there. Like a few million for a 1-2 billion dollar project.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by langosta »

GRID wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:48 am Right but even then the most you will get out of KCI is maybe some money to help build a stop there. Like a few million for a 1-2 billion dollar project.
expansions like the Silver Line would now be eligible for PFCs, typically by estimating what percentage of ridership would use the airport stop and prorating costs accordingly.

From the same article.

But does KCI have any charging capacity available? Answer is likely not.They applied to charge the max PFF until 2057. Now increased revenues from non-aviation sources or increased passenger traffic would lead to a decrease in the PFC needed for the terminal and runways.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.

It will cost so much money.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:40 am It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.

It will cost so much money.
Yeah, but it's not just the cost, it's simply the USA doesn't prioritize transit in any way, especially funding. Local governments have to raise a good portion of the money to build and maintain transit.

I wish transit was considered a basic infrastructure necessity here like it is in the rest of the world.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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GRID wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:46 am
WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:40 am It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.

It will cost so much money.
Yeah, but it's not just the cost, it's simply the USA doesn't prioritize transit in any way, especially funding. Local governments have to raise a good portion of the money to build and maintain transit.

I wish transit was considered a basic infrastructure necessity here like it is in the rest of the world.
Oh we spend a ton on transit. Just not effectively. You know how much some of these DC projects are costing.

In a real country you’d have a new subway line.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:20 am
GRID wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:46 am
WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:40 am It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.

It will cost so much money.
Yeah, but it's not just the cost, it's simply the USA doesn't prioritize transit in any way, especially funding. Local governments have to raise a good portion of the money to build and maintain transit.

I wish transit was considered a basic infrastructure necessity here like it is in the rest of the world.
Oh we spend a ton on transit. Just not effectively. You know how much some of these DC projects are costing.

In a real country you’d have a new subway line.
A city the size of KC would have at least one metro and probably 100 miles of surface rail (light rail, streetcar etc most in dedicated RoW), not to mention a fleet of 600 or more buses including articulated and commuter coaches.

KC barely has 200 buses now half are not even full size buses and those don't run very frequently and a few miles of streetcar that are in mixed traffic. Anything outside of the Plaza to Downtown corridor and the near east side is pretty much not accessible via transit or usable including KCI and the stadiums.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by herrfrank »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:40 am It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.
The US is really good at rail, if it is built by a freight railway. BNSF or UP or even our local Canadian Pacific - KC Southern railway all build and operate rail trackage cheaply and efficiently.

We also already have agreements for passenger rail via freight trackage. If KC city or another gov entity wished, they could use PFCs to fund a People Mover to the mainline BNSF track at the Missouri River, connecting to a passenger train servicing Parkville, NKC and Union Station via the Hannibal Bridge/ Downtown. It sounds ridiculous of course, but it is feasible under the current regime/ regulations.

Of course, more frequent bus service, like a 15-minute headway limited service from, say, the Plaza, Crown Center, and Downtown, would cost a fraction of this, but the taxicabs are opposed.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Cratedigger »

herrfrank wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:23 am
WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:40 am It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.
The US is really good at rail, if it is built by a freight railway. BNSF or UP or even our local Canadian Pacific - KC Southern railway all build and operate rail trackage cheaply and efficiently.

We also already have agreements for passenger rail via freight trackage. If KC city or another gov entity wished, they could use PFCs to fund a People Mover to the mainline BNSF track at the Missouri River, connecting to a passenger train servicing Parkville, NKC and Union Station via the Hannibal Bridge/ Downtown. It sounds ridiculous of course, but it is feasible under the current regime/ regulations.

Of course, more frequent bus service, like a 15-minute headway limited service from, say, the Plaza, Crown Center, and Downtown, would cost a fraction of this, but the taxicabs are opposed.
Does Big Taxi really still hold sway?
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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herrfrank wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:23 am
WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:40 am It would be different if the us was really good at rail but we’re not. Italy or Spain will connect half their country for the cost of us going to the airport.
The US is really good at rail, if it is built by a freight railway. BNSF or UP or even our local Canadian Pacific - KC Southern railway all build and operate rail trackage cheaply and efficiently.

We also already have agreements for passenger rail via freight trackage. If KC city or another gov entity wished, they could use PFCs to fund a People Mover to the mainline BNSF track at the Missouri River, connecting to a passenger train servicing Parkville, NKC and Union Station via the Hannibal Bridge/ Downtown. It sounds ridiculous of course, but it is feasible under the current regime/ regulations.

Of course, more frequent bus service, like a 15-minute headway limited service from, say, the Plaza, Crown Center, and Downtown, would cost a fraction of this, but the taxicabs are opposed.
This is not true, unless you’re talking about commercial rail only.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

I encourage everyone to look at what we pay per mile vs other countries. You’ll come back here mad but that’s the point.

No rail until we fix it
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Highlander »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:08 am I encourage everyone to look at what we pay per mile vs other countries. You’ll come back here mad but that’s the point.

No rail until we fix it
Do you have a link?
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by FlippantCitizen »

Took my first flight out of the new terminal on Tuesday. Very nice to have a modern facility with the ability to get a decent coffee and not be miserable and tripping over people while waiting for your flight. Breathing a sigh of relief for the bear minimum. No complaints from me, though I won’t interact with the arrivals pickup fiasco when I come back tomorrow since I parked. Pretty sure that’s just going to be an educational process because for the last 50 years KC people have had the privilege of being able to stand at the curb for a functionally unlimited amount of time. Old habits die hard and this phenomenon shouldn’t really surprise anyone given the previous setup and how used to it locals were and frankly how provincial most people are.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by FlippantCitizen »

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/225347 ... ts-america

We are bad at building all infrastructure efficiently/cheaply. Rail especially. The nature of the freight railroad operators in the US is part, I’ll also toss in the grossly unaccountable layers of bureaucracy and the consultification and outsourcing of expertise from the public sector. Along with the fetishization of process that began as well-meaning safe guards starting in the 70s as a kind of thermostatic reaction to the excesses best exemplified by the likes of Robert Moses. But the unaccountable leader/man-of-power/machine boss has been replaced by opaque layers of bureaucracy which in many ways is equally unaccountable to elected representatives or the constituents themselves.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by AllThingsKC »

Finally had my opportunity to use the new terminal. I compared it to LAS and OAK (both seemed like average airports). I really felt that KCI was much nicer. We have charging stations and cup holders on our seats, neither of which were available at the other two airports. I really enjoyed the "no gap" in the restroom stall doors at KCI. (Both LAS and OAK had gaps so large, I could wave to people as I pooped.) So at least compared to those 2 airports, KCI felt the nicest (in part to being new), but it also had the most amenities, short of slot machines at LAS.

I know there are nicer and better airports, but LAS and OAK made KCI feel above average. I'd never felt that way about KCI before.

Only down sides I saw: signage in and around KCI could be better. But it's not horrible as it is now.

And I noticed other major airports have ATMs from a national bank (B of A, Wells Fargo, Chase, etc). OAK had Wells Fargo and Bank of America ATMs. I don't recall seeing ATMs at KCI, let alone one from a national bank. Tough the website says there are ATMs from US Bank. I just didn't see them.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by KCPowercat »

New LAS terminal (4?) Is much nicer than the older where SWA flies form just fyi. I'd put it well above new KCI.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by DaveKCMO »

Cratedigger wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:29 am Does Big Taxi really still hold sway?
It continues to diminish. There's really only one provider left in KC, the rest are really small fries. What was Yellow Cab has converted to zTrip and is operating under the city's TNC regulations. Notably, that one provider has been snapping up standalone cab companies across the US and converting them to zTrip. They also provide all of the contracted paratransit service in the region and Johnson County's microtransit.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Sani »

AllThingsKC wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:54 pm I really enjoyed the "no gap" in the restroom stall doors at KCI. (Both LAS and OAK had gaps so large, I could wave to people as I pooped.)
Oh, so you're anti-social, is what you're saying. Why, I've met some of my closest friends while pooping!
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

This is a good article. This quote made me laugh too.

“ In an interview in early June, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg acknowledged the problem, but he offered no solutions except the need to study it further.”

I hope there is an environmental review before the study.
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