Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat »

msmith011 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:40 am
FangKC wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:31 am Societal changes are responsible for this. People in general don't dress up as much as they used to in the past. Casual clothing has seen the most growth.

In addition, people's incomes have not kept pace with inflation for 40 years so fewer and fewer people can afford upscale anything. More of their budgets go to needs than wants.

High-end shops have been affected the most. Many have closed stores in the hinterland cities. Many only do well in New York, Boston, Washington DC, Houston, Dallas, Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami, Palm Beach, Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.

About 43 percent of the nation's household wealth is in four states; 50 percent of the wealth is in six states. Those numbers are skewed by a tiny fraction of the state residents who are multimillionaires or billionaires. It doesn't mean everyone in New York has money to blow. It just means there are more wealthy households in those states. These are the people who shop in high-end stores.

Some wealthy people live in more than one place. They may have a house where their business is, but live in another city a good deal of the time. They do their high-end shopping in the other city because their home city can't support the high-end shops.

Secondly, more Americans see Bloomingdale's Nordstrom's, Macy's, and Dillard's as out of reach for their budgets. They shop at stores like JC Penney, Walmart, Target, TJ Maxx, Marshall's, and Burlington Coat Factory. We are also seeing more people shopping online so physical stores don't see the foot traffic and are more expensive to operate.

The Plaza struggles because our Metro's affluent neighborhoods keep moving further outward. It can have some upscale businesses, but it needs to return to serving the neighborhoods around it, and building more density.
I get what you're saying, but I have a hard time believing Kansas City can't support high-end shopping. Despite economic challenges, the luxury sector has performed very well in recent years; just look at LVMH, which owns Louis Vuitton, Tiffany & Co., etc. I liken it to the airline industry. The vast majority of people can't afford first class, but flights -- especially international -- are profitable because of the small number of people who pay for those seats.

In the past year-plus, Gucci has opened standalone stores in Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Nashville, Portland, Sacramento, St. Louis -- Kansas City's peers. These big brands know there's a market for luxury in tier two and three cities, especially in the midwest, because we've been ignored. I would argue that the reason we've lost luxury stores on the Plaza (St. John, Burberry) has more to do with the way the Plaza has been managed vs. people not willing to spend.
KC can absolutely support high-end retailers, and it’s correct that this has more to do with the way the Plaza has been mismanaged.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by trailerkid »

kcjak wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:41 am I feel like the new sushi place could be successful in a location even bigger than the t.Loft space.
If it's properly executed, it will be a massive hit for the region-- on the level of the hibachi grills back in the day. Kinda interesting no one has tried it in KC before. Crown Center should open a larger version. I know some locations were having issues with people tampering with the food though.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw »

It's a bit had of an opportunity cost of having a single landlord that is protective of their rents so there is no competition.

Also very restrictive zoning, implicit and explicit, that has effectively boxed the plaza into it's current state (pun only slightly intended I guess).
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat »

So when do we officially get to celebrate our brand new Dillards on the Plaza announcement?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

Another city. Another Giralda Tower replica.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrD844DNig9 ... _copy_link
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

Pretty sad photo of the plaza. Theater closed and that big empty lot and I guess closed garage.


I remember the McDonalds on that corner. It was the busiest McDonalds in the city. Reminded me of one of the McDonalds you would see in downtown Chicago. And Seville Square shopping center was in the big building.

Anyway, I hope this empty lot is filled soon. I still think it would be better off as a mixed use residential. I don't see Dillard's lasting there and then you are stuck with another big empty box on the plaza. At least make Dillards the ground floor of a 5-7 story residential building.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Chris Stritzel »

^That's an ideal scenario. Building multi-family on that lot would be extremely beneficial to the Plaza. Move away from anchor stores and continue having smaller spaces. Yes, I'm advocating for no big retail replacement.

The old movie theater there should come down and be replaced by additional housing as well.

The garage is not closed. It's just that depressing.

But, we all know that the Historic KC and Plaza-area NIMBYs would have a stroke because such projects would ruin the character of the Plaza. The future of the actual Plaza is mixed-use, so let's start by taking advantage of the opportunities we have today to have a vibrant and stable future tomorrow.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

Chris Stritzel wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:34 pm ^That's an ideal scenario. Building multi-family on that lot would be extremely beneficial to the Plaza. Move away from anchor stores and continue having smaller spaces. Yes, I'm advocating for no big retail replacement.

The old movie theater there should come down and be replaced by additional housing as well.

The garage is not closed. It's just that depressing.

But, we all know that the Historic KC and Plaza-area NIMBYs would have a stroke because such projects would ruin the character of the Plaza. The future of the actual Plaza is mixed-use, so let's start by taking advantage of the opportunities we have today to have a vibrant and stable future tomorrow.
That garage is huge. You could build a pretty dense residential project on that lot with 50-75k sq ft of ground floor retail and not have to build any additional parking which is by far the most expensive part of urban development. I'm surprised they are not taking advantage and doing something bigger there.

It doesn't have to or need to be a tower so the nimby's shouldn't care. You could even build few floors of residential on top the garage as well. With that garage you could even build some units with walk out access to parking in front of their units.

Why would people prefer this urban blight over mixed use development there?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by langosta »

The land cost is crazy high for the heart of the Plaza. You would need to build a tower to support that cost
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

I'd like to see B&B operate a smaller Palace Theater than the one that spanned both sides of the street. We lost a good art theater when Tivoli in Westport closed.

I agree that there should be residential above whatever retail is built on the vacant site.

I agree about McDonalds. I used to go there all the time when I went to the movies or needed food quickly after spending too long in Barnes and Noble. I ate my first crepe at a French cafe in the old Seville Square.

Whatever is built on that vacant lot. I hope it's designed to be easily divided into sections if the Dillards closes so that other smaller retail businesses can use the building.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

On a positive note, the Hilton hotel looks much better. At least from a distance.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by kcjak »

GRID wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:06 am On a positive note, the Hilton hotel looks much better. At least from a distance.
It does look cleaner, but I kinda miss the pink of the Sheraton Suites...it tied in a *little* better to a modern Spanish-y feel.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by rxlexi »

kcjak wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:55 am
GRID wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:06 am On a positive note, the Hilton hotel looks much better. At least from a distance.
It does look cleaner, but I kinda miss the pink of the Sheraton Suites...it tied in a *little* better to a modern Spanish-y feel.
Yeah, I've been thinking this too. Not a fan of the newly whitewashed Jack Henry/"Chiefs Fit" building and Fountain Place apartments, either. The buff brick, earth tones and tile of the older styles felt much more of a piece with the Plaza.

Agree that something more than a stand-alone Dillards needs to go up on the Nordstrom lot. Kind of unbelievable to me it is taking so long to redevelop such a prime site with something worthwhile.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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kcjak wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:55 am
GRID wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:06 am On a positive note, the Hilton hotel looks much better. At least from a distance.
It does look cleaner, but I kinda miss the pink of the Sheraton Suites...it tied in a *little* better to a modern Spanish-y feel.
Yeah, I agree, I was mostly speaking to the improvement over the deteriorating exterior of the Sheraton. They could have redone it in the same color and it would have probably looked even better.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Midtownkid »

If the Plaza was to add some apartments on this site or elsewhere, I would really love it if they would look to Spain for inspiration. Barcelona had blocks and blocks of handsome apartment houses. It was very common for the apartments to have French doors and balconies in every room. Many of the exterior walls has interesting façade treatments as well, not just plain stucco. I'd love to look down Nichols and see something along those lines at the end of the street:

Image
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Midtownkid »

I also really like this building in San Diego. (aside from that color).

Image

Something similar Would fit in well with the Plaza's architecture. I believe this is a newer building (anyone know who designed it?). Giving some height to the Dillard's building would also help block the ugly garage beyond. We need the new building to be mixed use, a focal point, and to have some Spanish flair. Otherwise, it will detract from the Plaza.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCKev »

Midtownkid wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:47 pm If the Plaza was to add some apartments on this site or elsewhere, I would really love it if they would look to Spain for inspiration. Barcelona had blocks and blocks of handsome apartment houses. It was very common for the apartments to have French doors and balconies in every room. Many of the exterior walls has interesting façade treatments as well, not just plain stucco. I'd love to look down Nichols and see something along those lines at the end of the street:

Image
This looks more New Orleans than Kansas City to me.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Cratedigger »

KCKev wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:06 pm
Midtownkid wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:47 pm If the Plaza was to add some apartments on this site or elsewhere, I would really love it if they would look to Spain for inspiration. Barcelona had blocks and blocks of handsome apartment houses. It was very common for the apartments to have French doors and balconies in every room. Many of the exterior walls has interesting façade treatments as well, not just plain stucco. I'd love to look down Nichols and see something along those lines at the end of the street:

Image
This looks more New Orleans than Kansas City to me.
Had that same thought! Very French Quarter.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

Midtownkid wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:57 pm I also really like this building in San Diego. (aside from that color).

Image

Something similar Would fit in well with the Plaza's architecture. I believe this is a newer building (anyone know who designed it?). Giving some height to the Dillard's building would also help block the ugly garage beyond. We need the new building to be mixed use, a focal point, and to have some Spanish flair. Otherwise, it will detract from the Plaza.
Midtown, that is the Balboa Theater, which was built in 1924. The architect was architect William H. Wheeler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balboa_Theatre

I agree this building would fit well on the Plaza.
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Midtownkid
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Midtownkid »

ah, same age as some of the Plaza's structures. Shouldn't be impossible to create something similar today.
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