5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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FangKC
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by FangKC »

Another thing that could be done to avoid this problem in the future is for the City Council to simply:

1. Get rid of parking minimums.
2. Since City Market is owned by the City, all future lease renewals for space there have no promises of specific parking requirements or number of spaces.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by smh »

FangKC wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:12 pm Another thing that could be done to avoid this problem in the future is for the City Council to simply:

1. Get rid of parking minimums.
2. Since City Market is owned by the City, all future lease renewals for space there have no promises of specific parking requirements or number of spaces.
Definitely agree as a general premise city should get rid of all parking minimums. However, I don't think it will solve the concern of projects that come before CPC. My observation is that CPC can do what it wants, so in this case the decision likely goes the same way and in future projects where neighbors cry "Parking!".
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

City Council approves plan 9-1

Fall groundbrekaing anticipated
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by phuqueue »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:20 pm
phuqueue wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:30 pm Did KCT even support the other plan, though? If not, I don't really know why you would expect them to bother responding to this. I realize they have become this board's favorite boogieman, but ultimately they're still a volunteer-driven organization with limited resources that can't be everywhere at once. Seems like kind of a weak gotcha to second guess how they choose to deploy those resources, especially if you aren't even aligned with them in the first place. The ones who should be the loudest voice in this conversation, who should be organizing a group response to it, are the ones who care most about it, such as, e.g., the people who have generated an 18 page and counting message board thread about it. Not sure why you all expect a group you ordinarily demonize to do your work for you.
I don’t think anyone was saying that the expectation was that they should be the only ones up in arms about the response to this project, more so that no response from them, especially in regards to the exchange of affordable units for more parking, on the highest frequency transit line in the city, was a little strange.
But it's only "strange" if they supported the other plan. Did they? Otherwise, what statement are you expecting them to make? "We oppose this plan that was chosen over a different plan that we also opposed"? It seems like all of you (including kcjak and SilentSpades and anyone else who hasn't actually posted the same but is nodding along at your posts) are just projecting your own views onto an organization that you explicitly disagree with. I think that is a little strange. It's not my place to speak for KCT (an organization I am not part of and have never had any real contact with), but it's easy enough to be skeptical of the fundamental premise that new development is per se good for housing affordability or that tossing in a few below-market units is net positive for affordability in the bigger picture, so it's not hard to see why an org like KCT might not prioritize a situation like this one. I mean, just for the record, my personal opinion is that it is always good for a building to replace a parking lot, and it's really outrageous that homes were traded for parking spaces here, so we are all on the same page there, but there are a lot of implicit assumptions baked into lazy hot takes that if KCT really cared about affordable housing, they should be up in arms over this. Let KCT worry about what KCT should be up in arms over. It's not KCT's responsibility to fight for the stuff that you want.
As a caveat here though, I’ve been actively participating in an organization doing our best to support development in this city. It’s hard though when you’re a 20 something with a newborn, bills to pay, and the hearing for a project is at 1pm at City Hall.
I understand, but on the other hand, exactly zero of these circumstances is unique to you. People don't do political organizing because it's easy, they do it because it's necessary.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by missingkc »

if kct really cared about affordable housing and had a strategy, they would be advocating for positive measures instead of always playing the spoiler. they are shortsighted and rudderless. to be completely cynical, i think the whole movement is a play for personal advancement by leadership. gone as soon as bigger guns come calling. playing the spoiler. doesn't takes a plan or a brain.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Obsessed. You all are obsessed
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

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Not obsessed. Just pissed that this group shows up just as KC is starting to get some wind in its sails after decades.in the doldrums. And so far it would be difficult to identify a single person that has materially benefitted from their obstructive antics. That"s the real rub.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

missingkc wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:02 pm Not obsessed. Just pissed that this group shows up just as KC is starting to get some wind in its sails after decades.in the doldrums. And so far it would be difficult to identify a single person that has materially benefitted from their obstructive antics. That"s the real rub.
Everything above.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by beautyfromashes »

missingkc wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:02 pm Not obsessed. Just pissed that this group shows up just as KC is starting to get some wind in its sails after decades.in the doldrums. And so far it would be difficult to identify a single person that has materially benefitted from their obstructive antics. That"s the real rub.
I’m not a fan either, but obstructionist antics are nothing new to KC politics. Kathryn Shields has been playing that game for decades, trying to kill development for parking minimums, pushing SFH as the only way and scoffing at any transportation besides cars. She’s tried to reinvent herself this last term, but that’s mostly because her gaggle of supporters is losing influence/dying off.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by FangKC »

One must recognize that placing affordable housing in the most expensive type of new building -- a highrise with mandated structured parking -- is the worst way possible to create affordable housing units.

Perhaps there should be a special stipulation where any affordable housing units lost to provide more parking slots -- to get approved -- should create an "offset" where the city/developer has to create those 15 affordable units elsewhere without the parking mandate. These units could be anywhere within KCMO but are required to be within 4 blocks of mass transit and 20 minutes from a grocery and drug store, and must fall within a delivery area for those stores so that seniors and the disabled can get items delivered.

The simplest path would be for the developer to buy an existing apartment complex that doesn't take Section 8 vouchers and convert 15 units for affordable housing.

I would think Flannery & Collins could create 15 affordable housing units in 6 months by purchasing mobile homes and placing them on lots in an existing trailer court inside the City limits. The City might donate the land and a housing trust might be established.

The City or land bank owns plenty of parcels where affordable units could be added. If an action by the City reduces affordable units, they must then help the developer find a parcel where they can be placed. The new housing wouldn't necessarily have to be in multi-floor buildings. It could be building duplexes on empty house lots, etc.

They may have to make some limits on how far out these affordable units could be. It probably shouldn't be the last bus stop at the KCMO city limits near Grandview, Lee's Summit, or Liberty where there are no grocery or drug stores within a 30-minute bus ride.

The City might structure this in a way where the developer could donate money to another affordable housing developer to help create that housing. For example, MAC could donate to Westside Housing.

Chris Stritzel and CrossroadsUrbanApts, you might be the ones to do the math on this. Would it be possible to create two affordable housing units in a duplex on a city-donated lot stick-built on a slab for the price of one affordable apartment in a highrise with a parking garage?
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by kenrbnj »

What's interesting is this:

The activists not only demand below-market rate housing. They demand the housing be on-offer in the most desirable locales.

The "Gentrification" argument holds no water. Many of the areas gentrified had been neglected for decades. The neglect, on balance, was permitted by the very people growling about gentrification AND coincidentally: Demanding low cost housing in the subject district.

When people are intrinsically contradictory; it's safe to ignore them.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

kenrbnj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 am
The neglect, on balance, was permitted by the very people growling about gentrification AND coincidentally: Demanding low cost housing in the subject district.
I'd like to know more about how these people permitted this neglect.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by SilentSpades24 »

kenrbnj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 am
The neglect, on balance, was permitted by the very people growling about gentrification
We'll just ignore redlining, white flight, and highway expansion through these neighborhoods, which destroyed these neighborhoods in the first place.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

FangKC wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:02 am One must recognize that placing affordable housing in the most expensive type of new building -- a highrise with mandated structured parking -- is the worst way possible to create affordable housing units.
With all due respect, why is it the worst way? I hope it's not just because the haves don't want to share a front door with the have-nots. Revitalized downtowns are as much about the successful mixture of races and incomes as it is about the removal of parking spaces.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by langosta »

Rabble wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:32 pm
FangKC wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:02 am One must recognize that placing affordable housing in the most expensive type of new building -- a highrise with mandated structured parking -- is the worst way possible to create affordable housing units.
With all due respect, why is it the worst way? I hope it's not just because the haves don't want to share a front door with the have-nots. Revitalized downtowns are as much about the successful mixture of races and incomes as it is about the removal of parking spaces.
The cost per unit is higher for new construction and even higher for highrise. If the goal is maximizing affordable units created, in-building affordable is not the best way.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

langosta wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:56 pm
Rabble wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:32 pm
FangKC wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:02 am One must recognize that placing affordable housing in the most expensive type of new building -- a highrise with mandated structured parking -- is the worst way possible to create affordable housing units.
With all due respect, why is it the worst way? I hope it's not just because the haves don't want to share a front door with the have-nots. Revitalized downtowns are as much about the successful mixture of races and incomes as it is about the removal of parking spaces.
The cost per unit is higher for new construction and even higher for highrise. If the goal is maximizing affordable units created, in-building affordable is not the best way.
So how much profit does a developer lose by including a few low income units in their hi-rise? Ouch, my CFO says we only made 49 M instead of the anticipated 50 because of those damned low income units.
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

Rabble wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:35 pm
langosta wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:56 pm
Rabble wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:32 pm

With all due respect, why is it the worst way? I hope it's not just because the haves don't want to share a front door with the have-nots. Revitalized downtowns are as much about the successful mixture of races and incomes as it is about the removal of parking spaces.
The cost per unit is higher for new construction and even higher for highrise. If the goal is maximizing affordable units created, in-building affordable is not the best way.
So how much profit does a developer lose by including a few low income units in their hi-rise? Ouch, my CFO says we only made 49 M instead of the anticipated 50 because of those damned low income units.
Financing for projects, especially bank financing, requires a certain ROI to ensure they can secure a loan. Affordable requirements throw that off and make projects infeasible under arduous macroeconomic trends, like labor costs, material costs, interest rates, and land acquisition. It isn’t always developer greed…
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by missingkc »

Does anyone really know how affordable units in a luxury high-rise would be configured? Looking for knowledge here, not supposition. Would the units be smaller than market rate units? Would they have cheaper finishes? Would they be scattered throughout the building? Or sequestered in less desirable areas? And what would that be? Lower floors? Against the parking? Would they constitute a "ghetto"?
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by langosta »

missingkc wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:01 pm Does anyone really know how affordable units in a luxury high-rise would be configured? Looking for knowledge here, not supposition. Would the units be smaller than market rate units? Would they have cheaper finishes? Would they be scattered throughout the building? Or sequestered in less desirable areas? And what would that be? Lower floors? Against the parking? Would they constitute a "ghetto"?
KC has been requiring standard units. Same quality, size, floor plates, etc. it is basically a discount on the normal building units


PV benefit of incentives diminishes when you stack on MWBE, Prevailing Wage, Affordable, added months of time and risk, etc. dilutes the benefit of the incentive. May as well build in KS or another metro that is easier to work in
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by DaveKCMO »

People really have a skewed perspective of developer profits, especially when they insist on adding parking, publicly-accessible amenities, no incentives, and affordable units. If you applied the same logic to, say, a restaurant, they'd go out of business.
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