KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

[beautyfromashes]

Cleveland is giving $12 million to Aer Lingus.

No, Cleveland is giving $12M in guarantees. This is what is disingenuous in Justin’s statement. That’s the max they will give out. If demand fully meets the expectation, they might not give out any. I’d take this over $5-6M up front because I think the metro would rally and fill the seats.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Can we stop countering with “well we need the corporate community to do..” it’s not gonna happen. They’re not going to do anything.

So moving beyond the corporate community, what’s the next best thing we can do to attract the flight. If it’s more money, then we need to find a way to get more money. Maybe that’s from KS also. I’m surprised they haven’t kicked in actually given they “use the airport more”. We just need to stop droning in about the corporate community and find the another way with our them to get this done.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

We are also one of the smallest regional drawers of any of the other Midwest/Rustbelt cities acquiring TATL. Yeah we’re the biggest metro in this region, but we draw a fraction of what those in the Ohio river valley or further east will simply due to proximity of large populations that aren’t too spread. It’s not Apples to Apples

Our metro is bigger than Indianapolis, same as Pittsburgh, just smaller than St. Louis. There’s enough demand, corporate money and public money here to get the deal done.

I’m not speaking to metro populations, I’m speaking to total catchment area. Look at the population density around those other areas, there’s numerous metros in closer proximity than what we have to us.

[dev49]

Can we stop countering with “well we need the corporate community to do..” it’s not gonna happen. They’re not going to do anything.

So moving beyond the corporate community, what’s the next best thing we can do to attract the flight. If it’s more money, then we need to find a way to get more money. Maybe that’s from KS also. I’m surprised they haven’t kicked in actually given they “use the airport more”. We just need to stop droning in about the corporate community and find the another way with our them to get this done.

But that’s who is going to be the more money. And they are going to have to guarantee seats unless you just want Iceland air back.

[beautyfromashes]

Until the business community steps up, no one is going to start a route. For that to happen some organization has to be the voice of bringing them together. STL had Greater STL form and get their act together. Ohio had Job Ohio doing their work for it.

I guarantee you these groups were approached first by their city airport departments. And this is my whole point, we have to have someone who can bring the respective parties together: public, private, philanthropic to get a deal done. I don’t care who it is. If the states are dragging their feet, hire Parsons Republican nephew. Get a big corporate player to bring people to the table. We need a higher level salesman/women who can close a deal. We obviously have people who can do that. We’ve gotten corporate and public backing for several big projects and events. We got the airport approved and built. This needs to be a larger priority.

[beautyfromashes]

I’m not speaking to metro populations, I’m speaking to total catchment area. Look at the population density around those other areas, there’s numerous metros in closer proximity than what we have to us.

And all of those surrounding metros already have TAtl. I don’t think many people from Chicago are going to drive to Indianapolis to get a TATL flight, but people from Springfield, Omaha, Des Moines, Wichita, etc (none with TATL nonstop) will drive to KC for one.

[langosta]

I’m not speaking to metro populations, I’m speaking to total catchment area. Look at the population density around those other areas, there’s numerous metros in closer proximity than what we have to us.

And all of those surrounding metros already have TAtl. I don’t think many people from Chicago are going to drive to Indianapolis to get a TATL flight, but people from Springfield, Omaha, Des Moines, Wichita, etc (none with TATL nonstop) will drive to KC for one.

Cincinatti draws from a region of over 13 million including:
- IND
- Lousiville
- Columbus
- Dayton
- Lexington

[langosta]

Cleveland is giving $12 million to Aer Lingus.

No, Cleveland is giving $12M in guarantees. This is what is disingenuous in Justin’s statement. That’s the max they will give out. If demand fully meets the expectation, they might not give out any. I’d take this over $5-6M up front because I think the metro would rally and fill the seats.

Who in KC is willing to guarantee $12 million???????????????

Missouri is already taking the $5 million we received and opening it to STL.

KC has fewer people and less potential revenue.
KC has is farther away but revenue per miles is also well below peers
KC doesn't have state or business support

[trexel94]

Cleveland is giving $12 million to Aer Lingus.

No, Cleveland is giving $12M in guarantees. This is what is disingenuous in Justin’s statement. That’s the max they will give out. If demand fully meets the expectation, they might not give out any. I’d take this over $5-6M up front because I think the metro would rally and fill the seats.

Who in KC is willing to guarantee $12 million???????????????

Missouri is already taking the $5 million we received and opening it to STL.

KC has fewer people and less potential revenue.
KC has is farther away but revenue per miles is also well below peers
KC doesn't have state or business support

Did we seriously lose the $5 million?! When did that happen? I recall some STL officials being peeved about KC getting the incentives package the other week but haven't heard of them taking it away from us.

[beautyfromashes]

Who in KC is willing to guarantee $12 million???????????????

The odds of them losing the $12 million is nil. Perhaps with an average response from the community they have to turn over $5, with good response- less. Just getting Kansas to match what Missouri has offered really gets you all the way with minimal contribution from the city or Port Authority or corporations. So, what does it take to get the State of Kansas to kick in? How about some representation on airport management? Change the signs to say, "Welcome to Kansas City, Missouri AND Kansas. Maybe not choose just Missouri local retail shops for the concourses? Throw some stupid sunflower art in to the Birdman and City of Fountains represented pieces. Advertising signage. Make them feel like their getting a great deal. Marketing is such a non-quantifiable asset. What I've listed already could be sold as a good return for the $5M.

[trexel94]

Has anyone thought about reaching out to Tim Cowden from ThinkKC? He had a major role in landing Icelandair by rallying companies to chip in.

[langosta]

Has anyone thought about reaching out to Tim Cowden from ThinkKC? He had a major role in landing Icelandair by rallying companies to chip in.

Why? It’s not like they aren’t already

[Sani]

Which local corporations are going to drive TATL demand? Garmin? I think Cerner's out now that they've been absorbed by Oracle. H&R Block doesn't do business in Europe. Hallmark? I can't really think of major employers here that would drive ticket sales for a flight to Europe. St. Louis has Monsanto/Bayer; Cincinnati has P&G, CFM International, and GE"s Global Operations.

[hartliss]

Which local corporations are going to drive TATL demand? Garmin? I think Cerner's out now that they've been absorbed by Oracle. H&R Block doesn't do business in Europe. Hallmark? I can't really think of major employers here that would drive ticket sales for a flight to Europe. St. Louis has Monsanto/Bayer; Cincinnati has P&G, CFM International, and GE"s Global Operations.

Not many TBH, which is why the airport is trying to pitch the catchment area combined with business travel to drive demand. The reality is that most cities hand out incentives or waive landing fees to attract service. It is highly competitive and airlines know that. It is not just competing against other like cities but if we were to attract a foreign carrier we are competing with a whole other host of cities. This combined with slot restrictions at large airports like LHR and AMS make it all the more complicated. The air service team is working their tail off, I can guarantee it. However, until more money is pulled together it will be tough BUT KC having the World Cup in 2026 among other things will help with the city recognition, etc and will contribute to one day landing service.

[hartliss]

STL package to attract Lufthansa was around 5MM plus 18 months of waived landing fees.

Good article explains CLE and Aer Lingus: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... -city.html

IND’s program (DL eliminated Paris non-stop with COVID): https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... c-service/

IND’s package for DL: https://indianapublicmedia.org/news/del ... 126986.php

Incentives are used for domestic ops as well FWIW.

[trexel94]

Has anyone thought about reaching out to Tim Cowden from ThinkKC? He had a major role in landing Icelandair by rallying companies to chip in.

Why? It’s not like they aren’t already

I bring up Tim because he might be a better resource to find out what's truly going on instead of relying on cryptic tweets from Justin since its his agency that directly pitches to companies along with negotiating the incentives package.

[beautyfromashes]

….and will contribute to one day landing service.

Yeah, that’s just not good enough. We should be past the “one day” dreaming phase.

[langosta]

….and will contribute to one day landing service.

Yeah, that’s just not good enough. We should be past the “one day” dreaming phase.

I don't know if you have given a single real answer to why. The only thing that has changed is now we have an acceptable facility.

[hartliss]

….and will contribute to one day landing service.

Yeah, that’s just not good enough. We should be past the “one day” dreaming phase.

I was being conservative on my word choice. I’m sure we will land something, have no clue when. Just trying to educate all of the aviation arm chair experts (myself included) on what it takes to pull this off.

[beautyfromashes]

I don't know if you have given a single real answer to why. The only thing that has changed is now we have an acceptable facility.

Acceptable facility is a HUGE one. When discussions of a nonstop to Europe have happened in the past, the immediate response was always, "We have a terrible facility that would have to be replaced first." It was an acceptable response because it was true. When the airport was passed and the same questions came up, the response was, "We need incentive money from the state." Well, we got that. We've shown we can attract world class events. We're growing in population in our area versus the other "comparable" cities that are losing population. So, there comes a time when you have to ask the question if it's not the money or the facilities, maybe it's the people selling them. And that's all I'm doing.