5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

[beautyfromashes]

parking supply vs affordability is a real trade-off.

People need to record this and replay it on loop.

[KCPowercat]

The 300 Wyandotte garage is $3 to park all day. It is 3 blocks from the City Market. It is an office building, so it is mostly empty on Saturdays, but it advertises excess capacity every day. There are also signs advertising capacity on the Second and Delaware garage. Since it is no longer free all day, 3rd and Grand is usually empty. There are thousands of spaces within two streetcar stops — let alone the rest of the route. We are served by at least 4 bus routes. Ridership data for the streetcar shows huge adoption of the off-site lots on the other side of the North Loop. There are so many solutions here.

I have lived in the River Market for over 17 years. With every development came new predictions of an apocalypse, that each lost empty lot would "kill" the neighborhood. Yet somehow, in a city that was leveled for parking, the system finds a way, and the River Market is better than ever. But if we build a River Market neighborhood designed to store every car on the busy weekends, we will be the Great Mall of the Great Plains. Sometimes it feels like we're living in it anyway.

It is true that there isn't nearly as much foot traffic and business from residents as their should be, which has continued to be a frustration for me. Businesses have never really targeted us. And so many people still just default to driving in and out of the neighborhood, because it is clear that is what we've built it for. To walk is to walk through empty parking lots and dark, desolate spaces. We haven't reached critical mass of residential density to tip into a place that has truly lively streets.

But I'm not sure how all of the businesses I walk to pretty much every day know how I got there, so not sure what the basis of a claim that residents aren't showing up is.

While it is easier to join the daytime crowds, any attempts for evening hours to cater to residents didn't last long enough to even gauge interest. The truth is that the City Market mostly exists in a vacuum in the way it regards the neighborhood. When The Bite and other vendors did regular evening hours and promoted them, they were quite busy.

There is a ton of parking that can be a solution here. We just need to get out of dedicated parking for every use mindset so the parking market can work. But if we plan to bring far more cars into the neighborhood, we strain our already clogged pre-car streetscape that has been mostly severed from the grid, which would undermine the alternatives (bus, streetcar, bike, etc) and lock us into the downward spiral of car dependence.

I generally want to take people at their word, but there are a lot of people who wanted to see this project die for many reasons and are now tied to this business concern as the path to kill it. Those concerns are legitimate, and I wish there was a chance to communicate about the possibilities and opportunities here instead of having a NIMBY reflex.

Most of the objection raised in CPC was about employee parking, and many employees still park on the street. If we're worried about customer access, we should work to move those folks to the edges of the neighborhood in lots that employers can help coordinate, since they're at work for hours at a time. The street and adjacent parking should be for customers who may be less familiar with the neighborhood and are making quicker stops.

As I understand it, part of the reduction in the parking design was whether or not more affordable units could be accommodated, which they added to the mix. Real talk: parking supply vs affordability is a real trade-off. Ironically, communication about this to business owners said that nobody that works in the River Market can afford to live here. Again, vicious cycles.

And this project does not eliminate the parking, it reduces it. Neighbors do not want to have the neighborhood to ourselves. We love living in a neighborhood that is a regional destination. We just don't want to live in a neighborhood that doesn't value the experience on any given Tuesday because it is built only for Saturday.

staubio sighting!

[grovester]

Miss his regular posts but understand why.

Glad to see him weigh in on a very important topic.

[WoodDraw]

The 300 Wyandotte garage is $3 to park all day. It is 3 blocks from the City Market. It is an office building, so it is mostly empty on Saturdays, but it advertises excess capacity every day. There are also signs advertising capacity on the Second and Delaware garage. Since it is no longer free all day, 3rd and Grand is usually empty. There are thousands of spaces within two streetcar stops — let alone the rest of the route. We are served by at least 4 bus routes. Ridership data for the streetcar shows huge adoption of the off-site lots on the other side of the North Loop. There are so many solutions here.

I have lived in the River Market for over 17 years. With every development came new predictions of an apocalypse, that each lost empty lot would "kill" the neighborhood. Yet somehow, in a city that was leveled for parking, the system finds a way, and the River Market is better than ever. But if we build a River Market neighborhood designed to store every car on the busy weekends, we will be the Great Mall of the Great Plains. Sometimes it feels like we're living in it anyway.

It is true that there isn't nearly as much foot traffic and business from residents as their should be, which has continued to be a frustration for me. Businesses have never really targeted us. And so many people still just default to driving in and out of the neighborhood, because it is clear that is what we've built it for. To walk is to walk through empty parking lots and dark, desolate spaces. We haven't reached critical mass of residential density to tip into a place that has truly lively streets.

But I'm not sure how all of the businesses I walk to pretty much every day know how I got there, so not sure what the basis of a claim that residents aren't showing up is.

While it is easier to join the daytime crowds, any attempts for evening hours to cater to residents didn't last long enough to even gauge interest. The truth is that the City Market mostly exists in a vacuum in the way it regards the neighborhood. When The Bite and other vendors did regular evening hours and promoted them, they were quite busy.

There is a ton of parking that can be a solution here. We just need to get out of dedicated parking for every use mindset so the parking market can work. But if we plan to bring far more cars into the neighborhood, we strain our already clogged pre-car streetscape that has been mostly severed from the grid, which would undermine the alternatives (bus, streetcar, bike, etc) and lock us into the downward spiral of car dependence.

I generally want to take people at their word, but there are a lot of people who wanted to see this project die for many reasons and are now tied to this business concern as the path to kill it. Those concerns are legitimate, and I wish there was a chance to communicate about the possibilities and opportunities here instead of having a NIMBY reflex.

Most of the objection raised in CPC was about employee parking, and many employees still park on the street. If we're worried about customer access, we should work to move those folks to the edges of the neighborhood in lots that employers can help coordinate, since they're at work for hours at a time. The street and adjacent parking should be for customers who may be less familiar with the neighborhood and are making quicker stops.

As I understand it, part of the reduction in the parking design was whether or not more affordable units could be accommodated, which they added to the mix. Real talk: parking supply vs affordability is a real trade-off. Ironically, communication about this to business owners said that nobody that works in the River Market can afford to live here. Again, vicious cycles.

And this project does not eliminate the parking, it reduces it. Neighbors do not want to have the neighborhood to ourselves. We love living in a neighborhood that is a regional destination. We just don't want to live in a neighborhood that doesn't value the experience on any given Tuesday because it is built only for Saturday.

I took Matt out of hibernation in style! I agree with all of this and I'm glad he wrote it better than me.

[JohnKCMO]

staubio wrote:
> And this project does not eliminate the parking, it reduces it. Neighbors
> do not want to have the neighborhood to ourselves. We love living in a
> neighborhood that is a regional destination. We just don't want to live in
> a neighborhood that doesn't value the experience on any given Tuesday
> because it is built only for Saturday.

This project reduces it by over a hundred parking spaces. That is a significant reduction. The parking lot Harvest is taking over is also dedicated parking for the several hundred Market employees and for garbage disposal/recycling, all week. The City Market controls and sells discounted parking for local merchants who have to drive to work. These private lots, you mention, are not going to provide discounted or free parking to replace this one. Does anyone really believe that if the P&L or the Plaza didn't have immediate parking that they could keep in business. It seems that no one wants any parking in the River Market, but the only ones who can survive in that environment are Subway and Starbucks. Businesses saw a huge reduction in revenue during the streetcar and Walnut St. construction just due to a small reduction in parking. One time they shut the entire roads, around the City Market, down on a Saturday for some running event. Businesses lost hundreds of thousands in revenue that day. People did not want to hunt for parking and walk several blocks to shop in the Market. Believe me I speak from 17 years of experience, I'm not just complaining that I or my customers may have to walk a couple blocks. If the apartment project at 5th and Main is the norm on parking reduction I guarantee you that there won't be any businesses left in the area in a couple years.

[KCPowercat]

A running event lost businesses 100's of thousands? Let's open the books and prove that one.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

staubio wrote:
If the apartment project at 5th and Main is the norm on parking reduction I guarantee you that there won't be any businesses left in the area in a couple years.

Okay, this is an incredibly lofty claim in and of itself. Every data set that I’ve found shows that replacing just parking usage with residential and parking will actually increase business viability. 300-500 new neighbors is nothing to sneeze at if it could drive even a 10% increase in foot traffic on a weekday. That’s possibly 50 people patronizing your business on days that aren’t market weekend days. Are you saying that wouldn’t be beneficial to you and your business? That’s the part I’m confused about

[beautyfromashes]

staubio wrote:
If the apartment project at 5th and Main is the norm on parking reduction I guarantee you that there won't be any businesses left in the area in a couple years.

Okay, this is an incredibly lofty claim in and of itself. Every data set that I’ve found shows that replacing just parking usage with residential and parking will actually increase business viability. 300-500 new neighbors is nothing to sneeze at if it could drive even a 10% increase in foot traffic on a weekday. That’s possibly 50 people patronizing your business on days that aren’t market weekend days. Are you saying that wouldn’t be beneficial to you and your business? That’s the part I’m confused about

This has been part of the problem with the River Market, there are several retailers who gear their entire business to one weekend day. Many even shut down during the week because they don't anticipate any business and really only want the large weekend push to maintain the business. Grinding out weekday work would be too much work. They'll hire their grandkids or kids to help run a Saturday and consider it a very nice side-hustle or retirement income. Changes in the area will make this style of business very hard.

[JohnKCMO]

KCPowercat wrote:
> A running event lost businesses 100's of thousands? Let's open the books
> and prove that one.
I can prove that my store was down close to $5,000, that day. What we made that day didn't pay my workers salaries. There are closed to 200 vendors operating on a usually busy Saturday. So open away, I have zero reason to lie to you.

[JohnKCMO]

beautyfromashes wrote:
> [quote=Anthony_Hugo98 post_id=654834 time=1676322165 user_id=225384]
> [quote=JohnKCMO post_id=654819 time=1676230373 user_id=250588]
> staubio wrote:
> If the apartment project at 5th and Main is the norm on parking reduction I
> guarantee you that there won't be any businesses left in the area in a
> couple years.
> [/quote]
> Okay, this is an incredibly lofty claim in and of itself. Every data set
> that I’ve found shows that replacing just parking usage with residential
> and parking will actually increase business viability. 300-500 new
> neighbors is nothing to sneeze at if it could drive even a 10% increase in
> foot traffic on a weekday. That’s possibly 50 people patronizing your
> business on days that aren’t market weekend days. Are you saying that
> wouldn’t be beneficial to you and your business? That’s the part I’m
> confused about
> [/quote]
> This has been part of the problem with the River Market, there are several
> retailers who gear their entire business to one weekend day. Many even shut
> down during the week because they don't anticipate any business and really
> only want the large weekend push to maintain the business. Grinding out
> weekday work would be too much work. They'll hire their grandkids or kids
> to help run a Saturday and consider it a very nice side-hustle or
> retirement income. Changes in the area will make this style of business
> very hard.
There are no businesses that operate only on Saturday or the weekend. If they close a day or two during the week it's only because they are owner/operators who deserve a day off as anyone else. My business is open seven days a week. If you think people here have businesses just as a "side-hustle", I can only hope you are confusing River Market merchants with the farmers market. Otherwise what you said is extremely offensive to the independent business owners.

[FangKC]

I have no idea the property owner situation but could there be some compromise to try to make a surface lot a garage and accommodate spaces by going vertical? If foot print is an issue place like NYC, Chicago have come up with solutions like Valet parking where you care goes into an elevator and they find a space and when you are ready to get it back they go retrieve it.

[dukuboy1]

Something like that but more of the elevator taking cars to a floor and then driven off to spaces on that floor. Saves all the ramp space in the structure

[Chris Stritzel]

Something like that but more of the elevator taking cars to a floor and then driven off to spaces on that floor. Saves all the ramp space in the structure

Like West Bottoms Flats.

[FangKC]

The Firestone (Abdiana) building also has a car elevator.

[im2kull]

Yep. I think that’s why when people decide to park elsewhere and take the streetcar into the river market, so many choose parking at union station.

They are comfortable with Union Station. We need to realize that many suburbanites deal with extreme fear coming into the city. “Should I bring my kids down here?” “Am I going to get shot?” “Will my car get broken into?” This fear is ingrained in suburban culture from an early age. It’s evident in any Royals stadium discussion. So, parking isn’t about the effort of walking or the cost of parking or even the time to destination…it’s about breaking down that piece of fear of coming DT. The streetcar helps with this a lot. Clear signage helps. Lighting helps. Streetscape helps.

I mean, a cop was shot in front of KCPD HQ last night. And, downtown is still full of crazies any night of the week, with the extra car crowd and other stuff happening on the weekends. I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking twice about their safety downtown.

[staubio]

This project reduces it by over a hundred parking spaces. That is a significant reduction. The parking lot Harvest is taking over is also dedicated parking for the several hundred Market employees and for garbage disposal/recycling, all week. The City Market controls and sells discounted parking for local merchants who have to drive to work. These private lots, you mention, are not going to provide discounted or free parking to replace this one. Does anyone really believe that if the P&L or the Plaza didn't have immediate parking that they could keep in business. It seems that no one wants any parking in the River Market, but the only ones who can survive in that environment are Subway and Starbucks. Businesses saw a huge reduction in revenue during the streetcar and Walnut St. construction just due to a small reduction in parking. One time they shut the entire roads, around the City Market, down on a Saturday for some running event. Businesses lost hundreds of thousands in revenue that day. People did not want to hunt for parking and walk several blocks to shop in the Market. Believe me I speak from 17 years of experience, I'm not just complaining that I or my customers may have to walk a couple blocks. If the apartment project at 5th and Main is the norm on parking reduction I guarantee you that there won't be any businesses left in the area in a couple years.

A one-day event that comes with no other adjustments or time for people to make changes is not a good test. The River Market is evolving. The way people access it and interact with it is changing. We've seen tremendous usage of off-site parking and streetcar just in the last year. We're growing. And there is still SO much parking in the neighborhood, but the free parking subsidized by the city so employees can park next door means the market doesn't work.

If employees are there most days for hours at a time, wouldn't it make sense for them to be the ones to walk a few blocks? It seems like most of this debate is about employee parking, since we've seen that customers can and have figured it out.

We will have to work together to adjust, but this hyperbole about sudden doom is tiresome. Finally reaching critical mass of residential density within walking distance of the City Market seems like a much better sign for its sustainable success than living and dying by a net change of 100 parking spaces, aka one load of streetcar passengers.

[KCPowercat]

KCPowercat wrote:
> A running event lost businesses 100's of thousands? Let's open the books
> and prove that one.
I can prove that my store was down close to $5,000, that day. What we made that day didn't pay my workers salaries. There are closed to 200 vendors operating on a usually busy Saturday. So open away, I have zero reason to lie to you.

What day was this. I want to research what happe ed that day..how long were roads closed for the run?

[TheUrbanRoo]

Does anyone know when the Council is gonna vote on this project?

[HalcyonKC]

The 300 Wyandotte garage is $3 to park all day. It is 3 blocks from the City Market. It is an office building, so it is mostly empty on Saturdays, but it advertises excess capacity every day. There are also signs advertising capacity on the Second and Delaware garage. Since it is no longer free all day, 3rd and Grand is usually empty. There are thousands of spaces within two streetcar stops — let alone the rest of the route. We are served by at least 4 bus routes. Ridership data for the streetcar shows huge adoption of the off-site lots on the other side of the North Loop. There are so many solutions here.

I have lived in the River Market for over 17 years. With every development came new predictions of an apocalypse, that each lost empty lot would "kill" the neighborhood. Yet somehow, in a city that was leveled for parking, the system finds a way, and the River Market is better than ever. But if we build a River Market neighborhood designed to store every car on the busy weekends, we will be the Great Mall of the Great Plains. Sometimes it feels like we're living in it anyway.

It is true that there isn't nearly as much foot traffic and business from residents as their should be, which has continued to be a frustration for me. Businesses have never really targeted us. And so many people still just default to driving in and out of the neighborhood, because it is clear that is what we've built it for. To walk is to walk through empty parking lots and dark, desolate spaces. We haven't reached critical mass of residential density to tip into a place that has truly lively streets.

But I'm not sure how all of the businesses I walk to pretty much every day know how I got there, so not sure what the basis of a claim that residents aren't showing up is.

While it is easier to join the daytime crowds, any attempts for evening hours to cater to residents didn't last long enough to even gauge interest. The truth is that the City Market mostly exists in a vacuum in the way it regards the neighborhood. When The Bite and other vendors did regular evening hours and promoted them, they were quite busy.

There is a ton of parking that can be a solution here. We just need to get out of dedicated parking for every use mindset so the parking market can work. But if we plan to bring far more cars into the neighborhood, we strain our already clogged pre-car streetscape that has been mostly severed from the grid, which would undermine the alternatives (bus, streetcar, bike, etc) and lock us into the downward spiral of car dependence.

I generally want to take people at their word, but there are a lot of people who wanted to see this project die for many reasons and are now tied to this business concern as the path to kill it. Those concerns are legitimate, and I wish there was a chance to communicate about the possibilities and opportunities here instead of having a NIMBY reflex.

Most of the objection raised in CPC was about employee parking, and many employees still park on the street. If we're worried about customer access, we should work to move those folks to the edges of the neighborhood in lots that employers can help coordinate, since they're at work for hours at a time. The street and adjacent parking should be for customers who may be less familiar with the neighborhood and are making quicker stops.

As I understand it, part of the reduction in the parking design was whether or not more affordable units could be accommodated, which they added to the mix. Real talk: parking supply vs affordability is a real trade-off. Ironically, communication about this to business owners said that nobody that works in the River Market can afford to live here. Again, vicious cycles.

And this project does not eliminate the parking, it reduces it. Neighbors do not want to have the neighborhood to ourselves. We love living in a neighborhood that is a regional destination. We just don't want to live in a neighborhood that doesn't value the experience on any given Tuesday because it is built only for Saturday.

I took Matt out of hibernation in style! I agree with all of this and I'm glad he wrote it better than me.

The planning meeting almost had me thinking there was a kernel of legitimate issue here, but after reading both sides of this, I hope City Harvest passes with minimal changes, or perhaps none. For the sake of this and future projects, the city should still take it as an action item to improve visibility for available weekend parking. Make it a more visible part of ongoing marketing, signage, perhaps code up a standard html widget that can be integrated into all the neighborhood businesses' websites. Perhaps a well-publicized app that shows current parking options and costs is in order (maybe that exists already for all I know). But don't cancel this project or delay it further.

I'm reminded of the guy who claimed the streetcar was running him out of business, somehow having hundreds of potential customers dropped off right by his door was driving off his clientele. Then later Phikul Thai opened in the same space--with evening business hours, no less--and between carryout orders and dine-in they always seem to be doing a fair clip of business any time I've been there.

Anyone who wants to run a business model where they only cater to the weekend crowds might ultimately be better served renting one of the stalls in the center of the market. They can do business without the overhead of renting full-time space.

[Cratedigger]

For the sake of this and future projects, the city should still take it as an action item to improve visibility for available weekend parking. Make it a more visible part of ongoing marketing, signage, perhaps code up a standard html widget that can be integrated into all the neighborhood businesses' websites. Perhaps a well-publicized app that shows current parking options and costs is in order (maybe that exists already for all I know).

100%

I'd like to know metrics on how much parking is available downtown within a quarter mile or half mile walk of a destination at all times. We keep discussing parking but is there a dataset that showcases actual numbers?