5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

[FangKC]

...
I guess I would ask, what is the plan for the 2 surface lots directly South of the lot in question. I know there are 2 surface lots there that serve parking for the businesses as well as residents for the apartments near by. Any chance the city looks to put up a Public lot on the lot to the SW? Kind of like what they did to help address parking issues for people in the Crossroads over by Lulu Noodles and places in that corner?
...

The City owns those lots and I believe they have -- or plan to -- put out RFPs on those lots to get them developed as well.

[JohnKCMO]

KCPowercat wrote:
> More residents (in this building) makes it so business don't have to rely
> on the weekend outside the neighborhood business. That's 7 days a week not
> 2!
>
> Not discounting a business owner's hesitation here. I can see the concern.
> I just think need to give the customers more credit. People easily park in
> other lots and further out and keep doing it. City Market and businesses
> like his are a draw that make it a destination people see value in parking
> a little further out. They do it today.
I appreciate everyone's optimism. We have had a business in the River Market over 17 years. We have definitely adapted and survived road and streetcar construction as well as Covid. I can tell you that lack of parking will force my neighbors and farmers in the City Market out of business (at least out of River Market). The great folks, who live in the area, mostly work weekdays and during 9-5. These independent shopkeepers have families and also work during the day, some even six, seven days a week. We have seen more and more people move into the neighborhood and weekday sales have not increased, except maybe for a small handful of bars/restaurants. While the residents of the River Market and Downtown would love to have the area all to themselves, you must understand that it is a Historic KC destination. It's a proven fact that it brings in more tourist and destination driven dollars to the area than local residence. My last comment on the matter is that your business owners are the reason you have a free streetcar. No business, means no sales tax, means no free streetcar. We've already seen most of the retailers leave the Power and Light district because they didn't make enough money from walkable traffic to pay the rent. My hope is that more apartment buildings are built, and I'd love to see a hotel move in. However my only complaint is that the developers (at Fifth & Main) promised to replace the parking and changed their mind at the 11th hour. Taking away over a hundred parking spaces is an absolute problem that needs attention.

[KCPowercat]

Best of luck to you and your business John. There are a lot of opinions in your post stated as facts but I'm not going to get into a post that seems like an attack. Hope I can frequent your business even more and support you. On foot.

We do need a comprehensive parking plan for River Market. That doesn't mean stopping everything for a few spots IMO. There are more parking planned for 3rd and grand and then the other side of 5th and Main development.

[dukuboy1]

There is a need for a parking plan for sure and I agree and see the points from John on this. Not everyone who is going to live in the new apartments is going to shop at your store, and if you eliminate the ease of getting to your business on the weekends it can knock down revenue for sure. I also tend to agree the the area should be looked at as a tourist attraction, but a neighborhood as well. I think there could easily be solutions to make it as much as a win/win as possible. But a plan is needed for the parking for sure and I think people will adjust to it. Some won't and mostly because they don't want to try. That's the world we live in and always has been. But I think most would adjust with an alternative.

I do agree with John's overall point about what the developer promised and sold the residents & business owners on as well as KC Council. Changed at the 11th hour is never good and the suspension of things to work out the details seems to indicate that is how things are playing out.

Fang mentioned that the city owns the lots directly to the South across 5th St. It would see the easiest solution would be to build a multi level parking structure there to serve all of the business and restaurants in the area. Most of the entertainment & dining is contained within a boundary of Delaware to the West, Grand to the East, 3rd St to the North and MO Ave to the South. A Nice garage structure on one of those surface lots would be centrally located to reaching all those areas. Perhaps a private & city venture to build something like that would work? I realize the not having enough parking is always a compliant with a close 2nd of having to pay for parking. But if you had a garage that charged a min amount, say $2-3$ for 4 hours that may help cover costs over time.

Just thinking of ideas that can get things moving again

[KCPowercat]

If memory serves those lots to the south were RFP'd for a large garage. I remember debating where the garage should dump out (the right answer being Independence Ave.)

edit - discussion here viewtopic.php?p=614177#p614177

Not sure there was any public parking here or not. Regardless not sure what happened here. Just kind of died off?

[TheUrbanRoo]

When we build a public garage like that, do they still plan to activate the ground floor and then just make everything above it the garage? Or it only a garage and nothing else?

[smh]

Not sure why the developers can't drop the affordable component and add another floor or two of structured parking? Or request some city help in adding it? Seems like a solution shouldn't be super difficult here - this project is way too beneficial to let die on the vine.

As much I firmly believe folks will adapt to the loss of parking, and park just a bit further away and walk to the center of the market (as many already do), this is a legitimate spot for central paid public parking, especially for those vendors on the interior of the market. It could/should be priced high relative to other lots in the area, but the perception of visible and easily accessible parking is valuable for market weekends, even if it is expensive and full.

It is bad policy to encourage people to drive to the center of the neighborhood, particularly on weekends when pedestrian traffic and streetcar usage is highest. Park on the perimeter and walk or take transit into the center.

[Cratedigger]

I hope there's some design consideration to an RM parking garage. For instance, I think some kinetic art on the sides would look really neat. For instance this or Lyman Whitaker's wind sculptures

[FangKC]

...
I do agree with John's overall point about what the developer promised and sold the residents & business owners on as well as KC Council. Changed at the 11th hour is never good and the suspension of things to work out the details seems to indicate that is how things are playing out.
...

Hold the horse here. I don't think the developer was entirely responsible for changing the parking allotment at the last hour. It appears the Downtown Neighborhood Association had a part in it along with unidentified stakeholders. From the Feb 8, 2023 Business Journal:

City Harvest resulted from a September 2020 request for proposals the Port Authority of Kansas City issued to spur development of the 160-space parking lot with affordable housing and mixed uses. The tower originally included a garage with 435 spaces, 160 of which would be reserved for City Market tenants and the public.

Flaherty & Collins later reduced that total by roughly 40%, to 260 spaces, after discussions with stakeholder groups such as the Downtown Neighborhood Association.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... rking.html

[FangKC]

I do agree there needs to be a comprehensive parking plan for the River Market. However, putting a big garage south of 5th and Main is not the solution. That block of Main needs to be redeveloped for pedestrian activity that includes storefronts. I'm not opposed to some structured parking in the development, but it shouldn't be some monolithic garage.

A comprehensive plan should also include the replacement of surface lot parking holding up Epoch Developments redevelopment of 4th and Delaware and Wyandotte.

I think the parcel west of the power plant should be part of this plan. One could put some structured parking on that parcel and extend Walnut as a pedestrian walk to the garage.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1121058 ... a=!3m1!1e3

[KCPowercat]

Parking garage with and entrance and exit on independence Ave is honestly a perfect solution if the ground floor on 5th is still retail. Major street that can handle traffic and pull existing traffic out of river market proper.

[beautyfromashes]

So, we’re never getting North Loop, are we? It seems that would be the solution better than piling up a bunch of parking garages.

[KCPowercat]

So, we’re never getting North Loop, are we? It seems that would be the solution better than piling up a bunch of parking garages.

What are you thinking would be improved with the north loop removal? People (and businesses) are still going to want this close in parking?

[beautyfromashes]

So, we’re never getting North Loop, are we? It seems that would be the solution better than piling up a bunch of parking garages.

What are you thinking would be improved with the north loop removal? People (and businesses) are still going to want this close in parking?

Because if you remove North Loop and replace the street grid with walkable buildings that have interesting experiences to see, people will be fine to walk from a garage where the loop used to be or in one of the buildings that replace it. People really don't have to be 100 feet parked to a destination, they have to feel there is something to see along the way and they have to feel comfortable in the area to want to walk. It's not that people don't want to walk, it's the fear of the unknown and the sadness of the environment that kills the adventure they feel they are on to get to the destination. North Loop does that right now. If you tell people to park at 8th and Main and walk across the loud highway to the market, that kills the joy of the destination.

[Cratedigger]

So, we’re never getting North Loop, are we? It seems that would be the solution better than piling up a bunch of parking garages.

What are you thinking would be improved with the north loop removal? People (and businesses) are still going to want this close in parking?

Because if you remove North Loop and replace the street grid with walkable buildings that have interesting experiences to see, people will be fine to walk from a garage where the loop used to be or in one of the buildings that replace it. People really don't have to be 100 feet parked to a destination, they have to feel there is something to see along the way and they have to feel comfortable in the area to want to walk. It's not that people don't want to walk, it's the fear of the unknown and the sadness of the environment that kills the adventure they feel they are on to get to the destination. North Loop does that right now. If you tell people to park at 8th and Main and walk across the loud highway to the market, that kills the joy of the destination.

Yep. I think that’s why when people decide to park elsewhere and take the streetcar into the river market, so many choose parking at union station.

[KCPowercat]

So, we’re never getting North Loop, are we? It seems that would be the solution better than piling up a bunch of parking garages.

What are you thinking would be improved with the north loop removal? People (and businesses) are still going to want this close in parking?

Because if you remove North Loop and replace the street grid with walkable buildings that have interesting experiences to see, people will be fine to walk from a garage where the loop used to be or in one of the buildings that replace it. People really don't have to be 100 feet parked to a destination, they have to feel there is something to see along the way and they have to feel comfortable in the area to want to walk. It's not that people don't want to walk, it's the fear of the unknown and the sadness of the environment that kills the adventure they feel they are on to get to the destination. North Loop does that right now. If you tell people to park at 8th and Main and walk across the loud highway to the market, that kills the joy of the destination.

I'm good with that. Just wondering. I still don't see the harm in a garage if the traffic is flowed correctly.

[beautyfromashes]

Yep. I think that’s why when people decide to park elsewhere and take the streetcar into the river market, so many choose parking at union station.

They are comfortable with Union Station. We need to realize that many suburbanites deal with extreme fear coming into the city. “Should I bring my kids down here?” “Am I going to get shot?” “Will my car get broken into?” This fear is ingrained in suburban culture from an early age. It’s evident in any Royals stadium discussion. So, parking isn’t about the effort of walking or the cost of parking or even the time to destination…it’s about breaking down that piece of fear of coming DT. The streetcar helps with this a lot. Clear signage helps. Lighting helps. Streetscape helps.

[dukuboy1]

Good discussions, thoughts and ideas. Given where are today my guess is nothing gets done. I like the ideas of at least 1 garage for sure. Rework the one on the 3rd St. that was open at one point & develop new one. Honestly people are going to have their opinion on downtown regardless. So trying to accommodate their parking concerns is not terribly important. I think you just build stuff & people will adjust. If a new garage went up & the apartment with its parking setup we would be fine. But I don’t know. Hopefully it works out

[staubio]

The 300 Wyandotte garage is $3 to park all day. It is 3 blocks from the City Market. It is an office building, so it is mostly empty on Saturdays, but it advertises excess capacity every day. There are also signs advertising capacity on the Second and Delaware garage. Since it is no longer free all day, 3rd and Grand is usually empty. There are thousands of spaces within two streetcar stops — let alone the rest of the route. We are served by at least 4 bus routes. Ridership data for the streetcar shows huge adoption of the off-site lots on the other side of the North Loop. There are so many solutions here.

I have lived in the River Market for over 17 years. With every development came new predictions of an apocalypse, that each lost empty lot would "kill" the neighborhood. Yet somehow, in a city that was leveled for parking, the system finds a way, and the River Market is better than ever. But if we build a River Market neighborhood designed to store every car on the busy weekends, we will be the Great Mall of the Great Plains. Sometimes it feels like we're living in it anyway.

It is true that there isn't nearly as much foot traffic and business from residents as their should be, which has continued to be a frustration for me. Businesses have never really targeted us. And so many people still just default to driving in and out of the neighborhood, because it is clear that is what we've built it for. To walk is to walk through empty parking lots and dark, desolate spaces. We haven't reached critical mass of residential density to tip into a place that has truly lively streets.

But I'm not sure how all of the businesses I walk to pretty much every day know how I got there, so not sure what the basis of a claim that residents aren't showing up is.

While it is easier to join the daytime crowds, any attempts for evening hours to cater to residents didn't last long enough to even gauge interest. The truth is that the City Market mostly exists in a vacuum in the way it regards the neighborhood. When The Bite and other vendors did regular evening hours and promoted them, they were quite busy.

There is a ton of parking that can be a solution here. We just need to get out of dedicated parking for every use mindset so the parking market can work. But if we plan to bring far more cars into the neighborhood, we strain our already clogged pre-car streetscape that has been mostly severed from the grid, which would undermine the alternatives (bus, streetcar, bike, etc) and lock us into the downward spiral of car dependence.

I generally want to take people at their word, but there are a lot of people who wanted to see this project die for many reasons and are now tied to this business concern as the path to kill it. Those concerns are legitimate, and I wish there was a chance to communicate about the possibilities and opportunities here instead of having a NIMBY reflex.

Most of the objection raised in CPC was about employee parking, and many employees still park on the street. If we're worried about customer access, we should work to move those folks to the edges of the neighborhood in lots that employers can help coordinate, since they're at work for hours at a time. The street and adjacent parking should be for customers who may be less familiar with the neighborhood and are making quicker stops.

As I understand it, part of the reduction in the parking design was whether or not more affordable units could be accommodated, which they added to the mix. Real talk: parking supply vs affordability is a real trade-off. Ironically, communication about this to business owners said that nobody that works in the River Market can afford to live here. Again, vicious cycles.

And this project does not eliminate the parking, it reduces it. Neighbors do not want to have the neighborhood to ourselves. We love living in a neighborhood that is a regional destination. We just don't want to live in a neighborhood that doesn't value the experience on any given Tuesday because it is built only for Saturday.

[TheUrbanRoo]

The River Market is one of, if not the only, places in the city where development is actually gonna flip the whole area incredibly fast. Like we should see visual change there within a few years. City Harvest, Ashland, 3rd & Grand and also Boutique hotel are all going to be going up around the same time and will give the district a new look quickly. Whereas, with the Crossroads, Plaza & even the downtown core are moving at a more moderate pace. I'm actually pretty optimistic on the River Market still, when you look at that perspective. I think we'll get Harvest passed, and in reality we were just 1 vote flipped from all of this not even being a discussion at all.