Downtown Baseball Stadium

[beautyfromashes]

I'm in favor of the crossroads location due to proximity to exiting entertainment districts. If they try to carbon copy The Battery, it could have a very negative impact on PNL especially if they try to activate these during non-game days.

You know Cordish quite well. If we take Shermans mention of a team entertainment district as being one similar to P&L, what would Cordish do? How would they respond to the perceived threat?

[TheUrbanRoo]

I don't see it being like P&L with entertainment. I think it's gonna be more like Petco Park where it just has alot of mid-rise residential around it with bottom floor retail/restaurants.

[Highlander]

Following this discussion on Social Media has been crazy. Since when have young people been such downtown haters? I thought that was all limited to boomers (like me). For example, the City Scene article "Royals Envision $2 Billion Downtown Ballpark - Largest Public Private Investment in KC History" now has over 1200 comments, a good majority of them against a downtown ballpark. I would have expected this from a KC Star article but not so much from City Scene which I would have thought was a more downtown friendly crowd. While there are some very pro downtown stadium people, they are in the minority. Parking and Traffic are the major issues along with the public investment component, the current state of Royals baseball and of course crime and homeless people.

Here's a typical post: "The majority of people going to Royals and Chiefs games don't live downtown and when there is no parking they will end up not going". 127 likes.

Some of the responses: "plus there are crackheads wondering all around down there, this will only increase that issue".
"I went through this downtown stuff in Atlanta. Parking & traffic so bad, had to get a hotel and spend the night."

Another post: "so why can't the city residents come out to the suburbs for the game. The present location is some what in the middle. Easy to get in and easy to get out. The City should of tried to put in some sort of entertainment district on the empty land surrounding the stadiums. I work downtown and it's awful to try to get out of downtown after work. Been to St Louis games. Didn't like trying to get out of downtown St Louis after the games. The rail not much better trying to get on after the games. I have a friend that lives in St Louis who has taken the rail in to the games and he won't do that again trying to get home was a nightmare. You can try to sugar coat it all you want but it's not all what people thinks it's going to be."

That's just a very small sample

Anyway - kind of depressing to read all that. I suspect many of the people that say they work downtown do not and if they do, they have not been to a large city before to have anything to compare with. The Royals ownership will have a difficult time selling the concept. Hopefully, it's just a vocal minority making the noise on SM. It does seem weird that nearly a million people will descend on Union Station for a Royals WS victory celebration but many of them claim they won't go downtown for a game.

[KCPowercat]

social media is not the pulse of the community in ANY news story.

[DColeKC]

I'm in favor of the crossroads location due to proximity to exiting entertainment districts. If they try to carbon copy The Battery, it could have a very negative impact on PNL especially if they try to activate these during non-game days.

You know Cordish quite well. If we take Shermans mention of a team entertainment district as being one similar to P&L, what would Cordish do? How would they respond to the perceived threat?

I would hope the city would take the lead on shutting anything down that's going to directly compete. The Cordish's are good negotiators and have faced similar situations. I feel they'd reach out and work with the Royals one way or another.

[beautyfromashes]

I would hope the city would take the lead on shutting anything down that's going to directly compete. The Cordish's are good negotiators and have faced similar situations. I feel they'd reach out and work with the Royals one way or another.

This makes it sound like the city is the ultimate power player. I’d say the Royals are probably in the driver seat. If they want an entertainment district similar to P&L, they’ll get it. Cordish obviously has a ton of money in this market and wouldn’t jump out. They’d have to compete. I’d say it’d be good for DT to have a building war. We’ll see what happens.

[shinatoo]

Following this discussion on Social Media has been crazy. Since when have young people been such downtown haters? I thought that was all limited to boomers (like me). For example, the City Scene article "Royals Envision $2 Billion Downtown Ballpark - Largest Public Private Investment in KC History" now has over 1200 comments, a good majority of them against a downtown ballpark. I would have expected this from a KC Star article but not so much from City Scene which I would have thought was a more downtown friendly crowd. While there are some very pro downtown stadium people, they are in the minority. Parking and Traffic are the major issues along with the public investment component, the current state of Royals baseball and of course crime and homeless people.

Here's a typical post: "The majority of people going to Royals and Chiefs games don't live downtown and when there is no parking they will end up not going". 127 likes.

Some of the responses: "plus there are crackheads wondering all around down there, this will only increase that issue".
"I went through this downtown stuff in Atlanta. Parking & traffic so bad, had to get a hotel and spend the night."

Another post: "so why can't the city residents come out to the suburbs for the game. The present location is some what in the middle. Easy to get in and easy to get out. The City should of tried to put in some sort of entertainment district on the empty land surrounding the stadiums. I work downtown and it's awful to try to get out of downtown after work. Been to St Louis games. Didn't like trying to get out of downtown St Louis after the games. The rail not much better trying to get on after the games. I have a friend that lives in St Louis who has taken the rail in to the games and he won't do that again trying to get home was a nightmare. You can try to sugar coat it all you want but it's not all what people thinks it's going to be."

That's just a very small sample

Anyway - kind of depressing to read all that. I suspect many of the people that say they work downtown do not and if they do, they have not been to a large city before to have anything to compare with. The Royals ownership will have a difficult time selling the concept. Hopefully, it's just a vocal minority making the noise on SM. It does seem weird that nearly a million people will descend on Union Station for a Royals WS victory celebration but many of them claim they won't go downtown for a game.

Social Media is depressing because it gives negative people a broadcast voice, and they are more likely to post something anyway.

If 1000 people post on an article, it represents 4 one-hundredths of one percent of this city's metro population. 0.04%. Everyone needs to get perspective on social media.

Every sity is full of people who hate change and then fade away after the change has happened. It's going to be OK.

[Highlander]

Following this discussion on Social Media has been crazy. Since when have young people been such downtown haters? I thought that was all limited to boomers (like me). For example, the City Scene article "Royals Envision $2 Billion Downtown Ballpark - Largest Public Private Investment in KC History" now has over 1200 comments, a good majority of them against a downtown ballpark. I would have expected this from a KC Star article but not so much from City Scene which I would have thought was a more downtown friendly crowd. While there are some very pro downtown stadium people, they are in the minority. Parking and Traffic are the major issues along with the public investment component, the current state of Royals baseball and of course crime and homeless people.

Social Media is depressing because it gives negative people a broadcast voice, and they are more likely to post something anyway.

If 1000 people post on an article, it represents 4 one-hundredths of one percent of this city's metro population. 0.04%. Everyone needs to get perspective on social media.

Every sity is full of people who hate change and then fade away after the change has happened. It's going to be OK.

Yea. Not suggesting that it's an accurate gauge of public opinion but I was kind of surprised because it was City Scene which I had kind of assumed would be comprised generally of pro-downtown younger people with an interest in the city.

[DColeKC]

I would hope the city would take the lead on shutting anything down that's going to directly compete. The Cordish's are good negotiators and have faced similar situations. I feel they'd reach out and work with the Royals one way or another.

This makes it sound like the city is the ultimate power player. I’d say the Royals are probably in the driver seat. If they want an entertainment district similar to P&L, they’ll get it. Cordish obviously has a ton of money in this market and wouldn’t jump out. They’d have to compete. I’d say it’d be good for DT to have a building war. We’ll see what happens.

We don't have the bodies to support two entertainment districts fairly close to each other. The city would have a say in putting this on the ballet and could dictate certain stipulations. Residential and office competition could be a good thing, but two similar entertainment concepts like the live block near each other could mean both struggle.

[TheLastGentleman]

“Da boss of dem Royals comin’ in, steppin on our turf. Mistah Cordish don’t like that, right? We want ya to make him, uh, change his mind, ya see? Bada bing bada boom. Trouble? Nah, forgettaboutit. City loves us, no trouble here!”

[TheUrbanRoo]

It wouldn't even be smart for the Royals either, though. If they try build entertainment to compete with Cordish, then they too are gonna face too much competition.

I still think in the end they will come to a deal where it's really more of a residential district and not as much about "entertainment" like Cordish's is. Which is great.

I see the Royals project being very very similar to Petco Park in San Diego.

[FangKC]

Whatever the Royals build doesn't directly have to compete with the P&L District. What they call an "entertainment district" could be family-friendly restaurants like Applebees, Chili's, Hawaiian Brothers, Sheridan's Frozen Custard, Cold Stone Creamery, and Wahlburgers popular on baseball days and also serve to some extent visitors for other events, and residents, downtown. They might also have a sports bar with billiards, batting cages, and a Royals retail store selling merchandise. The rest of the retail in the EV would likely be in the base of apartment buildings like a coffee bar, liquor store, hair salons, spas, a convenience store, a bank, and a smattering of counter-type food places.

I would hope the City would see the wisdom of not letting the Royals have every parcel in the EV. Let VanTrust develop separately so that you don't have the Cordish problem of only allowing one type of any specific business in the district. We also need to set an environment where businesses Cordish doesn't want to "curate" can come into downtown.

A functioning downtown has things like more ethnic restaurants and service retail like doctor and dentist offices, chiropractors, optical shops, dry cleaners, animal hospitals, pet boarding and grooming, child care centers, and shipping stores.

[FlippantCitizen]

Whatever the Royals build doesn't directly have to compete with the P&L District. What they call an "entertainment district" could be family-friendly restaurants like Applebees, Chili's, Hawaiian Brothers, Sheridan's Frozen Custard, Cold Stone Creamery, and Wahlburgers popular on baseball days and also serve to some extent visitors for other events, and residents, downtown. They might also have a sports bar with billiards, batting cages, and a Royals retail store selling merchandise. The rest of the retail in the EV would likely be in the base of apartment buildings like a coffee bar, hair salons, spas, a convenience store, a bank, and a smattering of counter-type food places.

I would hope the City would see the wisdom of not letting the Royals have every parcel in the EV. Let VanTrust develop separately so that you don't have the Cordish problem of only allowing one type of any specific business in the district. We also need to set an environment where businesses Cordish doesn't want to "curate" can come into downtown.

A functioning downtown has things like more ethnic restaurants and service retail like doctor and dentist offices, chiropractors, optical shops, dry cleaners, animal hospitals, pet boarding and grooming, child care centers, and shipping stores.

All things that would attract me into the loop more often as an urban resident who does not live in the loop or even DT.

[beautyfromashes]

A functioning downtown has things like more ethnic restaurants and service retail like doctor and dentist offices, chiropractors, optical shops, dry cleaners, animal hospitals, pet boarding and grooming, child care centers, and shipping stores.

I sure wish there was a place DT for these types of places to go! They could even be on a second floor.

[FangKC]

One of the policy questions that need to be entertained along with subsidies and affordable housing is the concept of providing affordable retail spaces for some small businesses that need to sustain residential neighborhoods and to some extent office workers.

One shouldn't have to take mass transit down to an Office Depot at 42nd and Main to get some office supplies that CVS doesn't carry.

When we talk about public subsidies, they always seemed geared toward drawing in big developers or big corporate offices. The same incentives need to be available in some form to provide lower rents for small businesses as well that don't have big income margins, but are absolutely necessary for a neighborhood to thrive.

I mentioned ethnic restaurants. If an immigrant Indian or Ukrainian family with experience running a restaurant wanted to open downtown, they have huge startup costs and the restaurant might operate on small margins for the first few years. We need to fertilize these startup businesses. The right mix of them could be another thing that draws people downtown as well as enhances our city's draw to convention planners and management making decisions about office locations.

This is why I hate to see downtown lose smaller buildings like the one on the SW corner of 12th and McGee, and those small retail buildings south of Truman on Grand. These are perfect especially for small counter-type restaurants.

[DColeKC]

“Da boss of dem Royals comin’ in, steppin on our turf. Mistah Cordish don’t like that, right? We want ya to make him, uh, change his mind, ya see? Bada bing bada boom. Trouble? Nah, forgettaboutit. City loves us, no trouble here!”

What’s your problem? You clearly have one.

I think it’s in the best interest of our city and taxpayers to make sure this new baseball district works well with existing developments. I’d have the same concern if a new hotel wanted to build an outdoor covered ice rink near Crown Center.

How can you be the same person who posts some solid detective work followed up by this idiotic comment I’d only expect out of my child.

[DColeKC]

A functioning downtown has things like more ethnic restaurants and service retail like doctor and dentist offices, chiropractors, optical shops, dry cleaners, animal hospitals, pet boarding and grooming, child care centers, and shipping stores.

I sure wish there was a place DT for these types of places to go! They could even be on a second floor.

+1

[beautyfromashes]

I’d have the same concern if a new hotel wanted to build an outdoor covered ice rink near Crown Center.

You sometimes seem to be a giant contradiction. You seem all Republican-y in the politics section but seem very non-competition here. If a new hotel runs the numbers and think there’s enough $ made to build an ice rink—go for it! If CC can’t compete? I’m sorry, you should have run your business better. Same goes for a Royals entertainment district. The game’s changing. If your business isn’t running at its capacity, you’re at risk. Time for big city games.

[aknowledgeableperson]

In addition, I would hope all of this has been run by the Hunts and the city/county before, as all of these public funding puzzle pieces need to fit together. I am hopeful they have some expensive lawyers looking into all of this to make sure it adds up. The Baseball stadium itself isn't that hard to see how the numbers work - the $2b does kind of throw you for a loop, but if you realize that the stadium itself may be in the $700-$800M range then the rest is private development/tif funded it kind of works out. If the state kicks in $500m for the Chiefs/some amount for the Royals, it's forsceeable that a similar cost project could move forward.

Round numbers:
$2B for royals to cover new stadium + downtown district
But lets actually say it's only $722 million - same cost as Atlanta Braves Stadium
- $425M from Sales Tax Jackson County (1/2 sales tax over 25 years)
Team Input: $330M (same estimate as braves)
Total: $755m
New Arrowhead:
-$425M from Jackson County Sales Tax
$840 million from Team (Same as Titans)

When Busch stadium was built, it was 90% private financed, but it also only cost around $355m back in 2006. I wonder if the state would not be as willing to fund the baseball stadium. (https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm)

Other Sources:
-State funding $500m (New Titans stadium in Tennessee)
-Expand to Clay County - $230m?
(Expand to Platte County) - $120m?
New TIF- ???
Private Developer match for adjoining development

Your numbers remind me of early real estate informercials. The presenter would say you buy a house for X amount of money with little or no money down. You then go to the bank and secure a loan for X+ amount of money and use a portion of that money to fix it up. You then sale the property for X++ amount of money and put a nice profit into your pockets.
The Atlanta stadium was completed in 2017 so let's say a new stadium is completed in 2032 for opening day. Inflation and higher interest rates will likely cause the cost to be much higher than $722M. Also the current JC sales tax is for both teams and the Royals have stated the team doesn't want current taxpayers to pay more than they are now so I doubt that there would be a 1/2 cent sales tax for a baseball stadium. Won't get into the numbers for the Chiefs which I think are in the same fantasyland as for the Royals.
The big question mark is are the taxpayers willing to pass sales taxes for new stadiums for both teams? Given that it is likely a downtown stadium wouldn't be completed until 2032 it gives people plenty of time discuss the stadium plans for both teams.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I’d have the same concern if a new hotel wanted to build an outdoor covered ice rink near Crown Center.

You sometimes seem to be a giant contradiction. You seem all Republican-y in the politics section but seem very non-competition here. If a new hotel runs the numbers and think there’s enough $ made to build an ice rink—go for it! If CC can’t compete? I’m sorry, you should have run your business better. Same goes for a Royals entertainment district. The game’s changing. If your business isn’t running at its capacity, you’re at risk. Time for big city games.

Maybe this’ll encourage the P&L to actually fill up all the empty retail spaces as well?