Downtown Baseball Stadium

[Rusty Irish]

I'm reading the tea leaves on the Chiefs situation now that we can see how things are unfolding with the Royals:

1. There's no way another separate, isolated entertainment village out at Truman Sports Complex is going to work when everything is coalescing downtown and the Chiefs play 8x a year.

2. After Missouri drops $2 bil for the Royals, are they going to be able to turn right around and do it again for the Chiefs? This is where I can see taking advantage of a weakened Missouri here and swoop in

Only way TSC works post Royals is attempting to develop virtually the whole site which negates the sacred tailgating.

Which I wouldn't hate. I don't want post Royals TSC to be just Kauffman flattened for more parking and another expensive reno kicking an inevitable new stadium down the line again.

[WoodDraw]

My frustration with the $2 billion number is coming to fruition. *sigh*

You guys are all better than this. The royals should be better than this but apparently are not.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I have a feeling they’re gonna just turn TSC into something like Town Center and then a new Chiefs stadium. That is all.

[FlippantCitizen]

My frustration with the $2 billion number is coming to fruition. *sigh*

You guys are all better than this. The royals should be better than this but apparently are not.

We’re certainly getting a lot more than just a stadium for that price. Infrastructure, streetscape improvements, housing, retail etc. I really do want to know what kind of unit count we could expect with residential. I’d love if it were as many as 600-800 units or more but I honestly don’t know what to expect.

[Rusty Irish]

I have a feeling they’re gonna just turn TSC into something like Town Center and then a new Chiefs stadium. That is all.

I would agree with you. I think regardless of where the Chiefs play there will be a big market for people who would love to live next to the stadium or have their business next door.

I also agree that if MO contributes significant sums to the Royals for a stadium and mixed use development the Chiefs aren't just going to sit idle and settle for Arrowhead 2.0 plus parking on top of Kauffman especially with Kansas dangling major incentives. There's a lot more to this than what Lamar Hunt's favorite place to be was. Would be naive to think sentiment alone will decide this.

[WoodDraw]

My frustration with the $2 billion number is coming to fruition. *sigh*

You guys are all better than this. The royals should be better than this but apparently are not.

We’re certainly getting a lot more than just a stadium for that price. Infrastructure, streetscape improvements, housing, retail etc. I really do want to know what kind of unit count we could expect with residential. I’d love if it were as many as 600-800 units or more but I honestly don’t know what to expect.

There’s no money yet! There’s not even a plan! Not even a fake plan! They’re not even selling magic beans yet.

Power and light was started in what, 2004? In 2023 they won’t have even completed three apartment towers. And that’s the most successful, heavily subsidized development in downtown recent history.

Everyone needs to settle down. Calm, calm.

[WoodDraw]

So, we’re getting close to the magic beans stage. This includes listening tours where they say how it will remake downtown and connect communities and be the most transformational development ever.

Next comes the fake plan, this is where you select a site and get incredible renderings as you put whatever you need to the voters to get their approval using the magic beans. Plus get everyone excited enough to get federal, state, city support you need.

Next comes the transition plan, where you have to sell bonds and raise equity with real people looking at your numbers and you have to admit your magic beans aren’t that quick growing. The renderings change, the time table changes, everyone talks a lot in suits. Things get cut or put off.

Next comes the plan. You have real money backed by banks paying people. Congratulations, you’re there.

This process typically takes years to go from magic beans to a plan.

[FlippantCitizen]

Uhhh. Everyone seems pretty calm. Just a lot of the same questions debated in this thread for years. Obviously going to be a long process and even when there is a real plan it will take years or even over a decade to fully execute. Hope the discussion doesn’t boil your blood too bad.

[WoodDraw]

Uhhh. Everyone seems pretty calm. Just a lot of the same questions debated in this thread for years. Obviously going to be a long process and even when there is a real plan it will take years or even over a decade to fully execute. Hope the discussion doesn’t boil your blood too bad.

Didn’t mean to take it out on you

[TheUrbanRoo]

I want them to shoot for the moon and go for $2 bil or more. As Flippant said, this is gonna cover alot more than just the stadium -- which to me is more important. And we all know that without this ask, we'll never get simple things like streetscape done. So by all means, ask for the moon in this package so we get as much done as possible before we have to go back to begging for scraps. Get as much as we can.

[FangKC]

The underrated thing nobody's talking about is the horrendous streetscape between this site and P&L. It just kills the whole vibe if it doesn't get overhauled.

With Copaken owning two key blocks in this connection, I imagine a development there will address this concern. Additionally, if the stadium is approved, I would not write off the idea that the city would do some major overhauling of the streetscape across the whole of downtown east of Main.

Copaken doesn't control all of the block of Grand to McGee, 12th to 13th. They have control of the west half of the block fronting Grand, and about a third of the east side of the block fronting McGee. The other two-thirds are owned by three separate parties.

It's possible they have an option to buy with each of the parties if they ever decide to develop the block.

[DColeKC]

My frustration with the $2 billion number is coming to fruition. *sigh*

You guys are all better than this. The royals should be better than this but apparently are not.

We’re certainly getting a lot more than just a stadium for that price. Infrastructure, streetscape improvements, housing, retail etc. I really do want to know what kind of unit count we could expect with residential. I’d love if it were as many as 600-800 units or more but I honestly don’t know what to expect.

There’s no money yet! There’s not even a plan! Not even a fake plan! They’re not even selling magic beans yet.

Power and light was started in what, 2004? In 2023 they won’t have even completed three apartment towers. And that’s the most successful, heavily subsidized development in downtown recent history.

Everyone needs to settle down. Calm, calm.

There is a plan and millions and millions of dollars. Just because they're not sharing that with us doesn't mean they haven't been working on this for more than a year.

PNL was a master development that from the beginning was planned in phases. Residential wasn't going to happen until the entertainment aspect was firmly established. Construction on One Light started about 7 years after the very first business opened in PNL. Not too shabby considering downtown as a whole at the time. It was also the first new high-rise in downtown KC in 50 years.

This situation is different considering the ballpark won't work by itself. The idea from the Royals perspective is to increase revenue in order to increase the quality of the team on a consistent basis. They need the office and residential components to work from the jump.

[shinatoo]

We’re certainly getting a lot more than just a stadium for that price. Infrastructure, streetscape improvements, housing, retail etc. I really do want to know what kind of unit count we could expect with residential. I’d love if it were as many as 600-800 units or more but I honestly don’t know what to expect.

There’s no money yet! There’s not even a plan! Not even a fake plan! They’re not even selling magic beans yet.

Power and light was started in what, 2004? In 2023 they won’t have even completed three apartment towers. And that’s the most successful, heavily subsidized development in downtown recent history.

Everyone needs to settle down. Calm, calm.

There is a plan and millions and millions of dollars. Just because they're not sharing that with us doesn't mean they haven't been working on this for more than a year.

PNL was a master development that from the beginning was planned in phases. Residential wasn't going to happen until the entertainment aspect was firmly established. Construction on One Light started about 7 years after the very first business opened in PNL. Not too shabby considering downtown as a whole at the time. It was also the first new high-rise in downtown KC in 50 years.

This situation is different considering the ballpark won't work by itself. The idea from the Royals perspective is to increase revenue in order to increase the quality of the team on a consistent basis. They need the office and residential components to work from the jump.

Also recall that the market crash of 2008 all but destroyed financing for new condos, which dramatically slowed the development of the "Light Towers".

[alejandro46]

In addition, I would hope all of this has been run by the Hunts and the city/county before, as all of these public funding puzzle pieces need to fit together. I am hopeful they have some expensive lawyers looking into all of this to make sure it adds up. The Baseball stadium itself isn't that hard to see how the numbers work - the $2b does kind of throw you for a loop, but if you realize that the stadium itself may be in the $700-$800M range then the rest is private development/tif funded it kind of works out. If the state kicks in $500m for the Chiefs/some amount for the Royals, it's forsceeable that a similar cost project could move forward.

Round numbers:
$2B for royals to cover new stadium + downtown district
But lets actually say it's only $722 million - same cost as Atlanta Braves Stadium
- $425M from Sales Tax Jackson County (1/2 sales tax over 25 years)
Team Input: $330M (same estimate as braves)
Total: $755m
New Arrowhead:
-$425M from Jackson County Sales Tax
$840 million from Team (Same as Titans)

When Busch stadium was built, it was 90% private financed, but it also only cost around $355m back in 2006. I wonder if the state would not be as willing to fund the baseball stadium. (https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm)

Other Sources:
-State funding $500m (New Titans stadium in Tennessee)
-Expand to Clay County - $230m?
(Expand to Platte County) - $120m?
New TIF- ???
Private Developer match for adjoining development

[Chris Stritzel]

The underrated thing nobody's talking about is the horrendous streetscape between this site and P&L. It just kills the whole vibe if it doesn't get overhauled.

With Copaken owning two key blocks in this connection, I imagine a development there will address this concern. Additionally, if the stadium is approved, I would not write off the idea that the city would do some major overhauling of the streetscape across the whole of downtown east of Main.

Copaken doesn't control all of the block of Grand to McGee, 12th to 13th. They have control of the west half of the block fronting Grand, and about a third of the east side of the block fronting McGee. The other two-thirds are owned by three separate parties.

It's possible they have an option to buy with each of the parties if they ever decide to develop the block.

Just building on what they own and the old board of education building site would be more than sufficient to create a much better connection than it currently is. I didn’t realize they didn’t own the full block, but I imagine they might have the option to buy those other properties.

[rxlexi]

There is a plan and millions and millions of dollars. Just because they're not sharing that with us doesn't mean they haven't been working on this for more than a year.

PNL was a master development that from the beginning was planned in phases. Residential wasn't going to happen until the entertainment aspect was firmly established. Construction on One Light started about 7 years after the very first business opened in PNL. Not too shabby considering downtown as a whole at the time. It was also the first new high-rise in downtown KC in 50 years.

This situation is different considering the ballpark won't work by itself. The idea from the Royals perspective is to increase revenue in order to increase the quality of the team on a consistent basis. They need the office and residential components to work from the jump.

Agreed.

Also re: PNL, they actually built out a pretty substantial district from the get-go - the Live block, the big retail block along Main, the retail courtyard surrounding H&R Block, the new Block HQ, renovation of the Mainstreet Theater, Sprint Center and renovation of the President Hotel.

I know that wasn't all on Cordish, but the majority of those big-ticket items were in place in 2007-2008 when the first spots in PNL Live block opened, IIRC. It was a very effectively coordinated large-scale development, even if missing the promised residential for several years after.

From everything we're hearing and from the most recently released renderings, it does sound like they are genuinely shooting for an urban version of Atlanta/the Battery, with the stadium and surrounding mixed-use development opening and functioning together (at least some portion of development - maybe start with hotel and couple of bars, team HOF, etc.).

[Cratedigger]

Frank White III confirms "We're not going anywhere" and the KCATA 18th & Vine site is not available as a possible Royals Stadium site

[Highlander]

We’re certainly getting a lot more than just a stadium for that price. Infrastructure, streetscape improvements, housing, retail etc. I really do want to know what kind of unit count we could expect with residential. I’d love if it were as many as 600-800 units or more but I honestly don’t know what to expect.

There’s no money yet! There’s not even a plan! Not even a fake plan! They’re not even selling magic beans yet.

Power and light was started in what, 2004? In 2023 they won’t have even completed three apartment towers. And that’s the most successful, heavily subsidized development in downtown recent history.

Everyone needs to settle down. Calm, calm.

There is a plan and millions and millions of dollars. Just because they're not sharing that with us doesn't mean they haven't been working on this for more than a year.

PNL was a master development that from the beginning was planned in phases. Residential wasn't going to happen until the entertainment aspect was firmly established. Construction on One Light started about 7 years after the very first business opened in PNL. Not too shabby considering downtown as a whole at the time. It was also the first new high-rise in downtown KC in 50 years.

This situation is different considering the ballpark won't work by itself. The idea from the Royals perspective is to increase revenue in order to increase the quality of the team on a consistent basis. They need the office and residential components to work from the jump.

Can KC absorb another mixed use residential/entertainment district downtown (or anywhere for that matter)? Just have to wonder how conflicted the P&L owners would be about an East Village effort that mimics their own investment? Would the Royal's venture be a smaller scale and target a different demographic? I'm assuming East Village would get the nod out of process of elimination. I'd prefer a place closer to existing entertainment options so efforts could be concentrated rather than duplicated but I don't think that place exist without considerable demolition of existing building stock.

Also - I think you mean first new high-rise residential in downtown KC

[DColeKC]

Frank White III confirms "We're not going anywhere" and the KCATA 18th & Vine site is not available as a possible Royals Stadium site

What did I miss? Not going anywhere?

[DColeKC]

There’s no money yet! There’s not even a plan! Not even a fake plan! They’re not even selling magic beans yet.

Power and light was started in what, 2004? In 2023 they won’t have even completed three apartment towers. And that’s the most successful, heavily subsidized development in downtown recent history.

Everyone needs to settle down. Calm, calm.

There is a plan and millions and millions of dollars. Just because they're not sharing that with us doesn't mean they haven't been working on this for more than a year.

PNL was a master development that from the beginning was planned in phases. Residential wasn't going to happen until the entertainment aspect was firmly established. Construction on One Light started about 7 years after the very first business opened in PNL. Not too shabby considering downtown as a whole at the time. It was also the first new high-rise in downtown KC in 50 years.

This situation is different considering the ballpark won't work by itself. The idea from the Royals perspective is to increase revenue in order to increase the quality of the team on a consistent basis. They need the office and residential components to work from the jump.

Can KC absorb another mixed use residential/entertainment district downtown (or anywhere for that matter)? Just have to wonder how conflicted the P&L owners would be about an East Village effort that mimics their own investment? Would the Royal's venture be a smaller scale and target a different demographic? I'm assuming East Village would get the nod out of process of elimination. I'd prefer a place closer to existing entertainment options so efforts could be concentrated rather than duplicated but I don't think that place exist without considerable demolition of existing building stock.

Also - I think you mean first new high-rise residential in downtown KC

Yes, sorry on the high-rise comment.

I'm in favor of the crossroads location due to proximity to exiting entertainment districts. If they try to carbon copy The Battery, it could have a very negative impact on PNL especially if they try to activate these during non-game days.

I could see their version of a entertainment area being a simple stage and plaza area where local bands can play before the games. Cardinals do this in the stadium even with Ballpark Village across the street.