DatafyKCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:11 amWhat is their (and your) source on this to confirm it's accurate?
Three Light
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The whole set of data lacks context. Most datasets use Greater Downtown, which goes all the way to 31st and includes Crown Center. Even 20 years ago wouldn't the number of visitors include people going to the City Market on weekends? Science City? Crown Center? And FFA and SillsUSA visitors? Big 12 and Div II basketball tourneys? 225K seems pretty low.
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It's not just kind of low, it's ridiculous. 225k to 10 million. Yeah okay.kcjak wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:19 am The whole set of data lacks context. Most datasets use Greater Downtown, which goes all the way to 31st and includes Crown Center. Even 20 years ago wouldn't the number of visitors include people going to the City Market on weekends? Science City? Crown Center? And FFA and SillsUSA visitors? Big 12 and Div II basketball tourneys? 225K seems pretty low.
Crown Center alone draws 225k and probably drew more ten years ago then it does now.
I'm sure visitors are up downtown, but those numbers are worthless without something backing them up. Is that just the P&L District area (which includes the arena)? Kemper was not technically downtown, but it was probably just as busy as TMobile in its heyday if not busier since it had many sports teams there too. Municipal was used a lot more more too 10-15 years ago. Just be realistic with stats. Manipulating them helps nobody.
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The city keeps historical visitor information to downtown and convention districts but I have no idea how those were collected back then. We have technology now that is very detailed and can provide us with some highly useful insights to make these determinations.
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Re: Three Light
Here's another take on the number of downtown visitors 20 years ago from CitySceneKC, "Mending Our Broken Heart: Diversions Needed for Downtown to Thrive (Part 1)", a reprint of a series first run in the Star at that time.
"A performing arts center is on the drawing board here. But that’s not enough, according to downtown’s latest blueprint plan and The Kansas City Star’s interviews with national urban experts and planners. Downtown also needs a bigger Bartle Hall. And a bulked-up Union Station. And a new sports/entertainment arena.
Doing all these could build on downtown’s arts and cultural strengths, and if you add up all the additional people who would potentially come to these new or expanded attractions, that’s 1.4 million more people a year in downtown.
That’s almost double the number of people who attend conventions and cultural attractions in downtown now, providing that many more potential patrons for restaurants, nightclubs and coffee shops."
So, that article, written at the time, claims 700,000 visitors to conventions and cultural attractions 20 years ago. Again, the exact geography isn't defined but at that time might have been limited to Bartle, Municipal, the Folly strictly downtown. Union Station, Liberty Memorial included? Maybe a few others?
"A performing arts center is on the drawing board here. But that’s not enough, according to downtown’s latest blueprint plan and The Kansas City Star’s interviews with national urban experts and planners. Downtown also needs a bigger Bartle Hall. And a bulked-up Union Station. And a new sports/entertainment arena.
Doing all these could build on downtown’s arts and cultural strengths, and if you add up all the additional people who would potentially come to these new or expanded attractions, that’s 1.4 million more people a year in downtown.
That’s almost double the number of people who attend conventions and cultural attractions in downtown now, providing that many more potential patrons for restaurants, nightclubs and coffee shops."
So, that article, written at the time, claims 700,000 visitors to conventions and cultural attractions 20 years ago. Again, the exact geography isn't defined but at that time might have been limited to Bartle, Municipal, the Folly strictly downtown. Union Station, Liberty Memorial included? Maybe a few others?
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Spirit Fest alone used to draw around 250-500,000 over one weekend. And that's not an exaggeration. It was a huge festival.
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That would put it on par with some of the biggest festivals in the nation at that time. I can't imagine anywhere near 500k attended over the weekend.
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I know they used to draw 100k a day, so probably 250-350k or so. It was a big festival with some big concerts. I know it was starting to rival Fair St Louis in attendance, but eventually it it died off and eventually went away.
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Woodstock 99 had 220k over 4 days. 98.9 Rockfest had 50k for one day and was able to claim biggest one day festival in this country.
Just saying there’s no way 200k attended Spirit Fest and rivaled Woodstock 99.
Just saying there’s no way 200k attended Spirit Fest and rivaled Woodstock 99.
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I was at Spirit fest in 99. 100k would be very generous. My guess would be 50k.
Men at Work, Violent Fems, Boom Boom Satellites, Moby, and a couple of other local bands.
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Not sure why 200k is hard to fathom for a major festival in major metro. I recall a couple of years being really large crowds. I was there for the year Bob Dylan was there and they said it was over 100k for his concert alone and people come and go all weekend.
Regardless, lots of people went downtown and I still think Downtown was actually much busier during the day in the 80's even though it totally died at 5pm most days. Downtown feels very quiet now during the day. Just saying it didn't go from 250k to 10 million. That doesn't even make sense.
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Was office population higher in the 1980’s? I could see that being possible.
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It's not hard to fathom. But Men at work and VF aren't drawing 250k. Nor did they.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:41 pmNot sure why 200k is hard to fathom for a major festival in major metro. I recall a couple of years being really large crowds. I was there for the year Bob Dylan was there and they said it was over 100k for his concert alone and people come and go all weekend.
Regardless, lots of people went downtown and I still think Downtown was actually much busier during the day in the 80's even though it totally died at 5pm most days. Downtown feels very quiet now during the day. Just saying it didn't go from 250k to 10 million. That doesn't even make sense.
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Did I say "Men at Work drew 250k?" Never said those specific groups did and I was talking about the entire festival. Lot's of people might go to the festival and not to a concert and over 3 days, it would have been pretty easy to hit hundreds of thousands for the entire event. And lets say it was only 50k a day. That's 150k for the entire event, so over half visitors came downtown for one weekend.
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Downtown KC was pretty busy during the weekday in the late 80's and early 90's. It had a ton more office space and just people working there. Think about how many office buildings that were converted to residential. Fed Reserve was down there etc. You go downtown at 4pm and Main and Grand were clogged with people, cars and buses. Places like City Center SQ and Town Pavilion were bustling most of the day.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:03 pmWas office population higher in the 1980’s? I could see that being possible.
The problem was it was all concentrated right in the core and everything outside the very center of the downtown loop was parking lots. Most of the loop itself was parking lots. I'm not saying it was better back then, just saying the daytime population was more active. And it seemed like there were more conventions. VICA and FAA alone would be in town for many days each and just fill the entire downtown area with people.
Downtown doesn't even have a McDonalds now. Again, I'm not saying it was better. It wasn't. But the core of downtown did feel more like a bustling city at least during the day back then. It was a ghost town after 5 though.
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KC was a much more competitive convention city in the 70's, 80's, and even 90's. It was a policy emphasis in the 70s.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:54 pmDowntown KC was pretty busy during the weekday in the late 80's and early 90's. It had a ton more office space and just people working there. Think about how many office buildings that were converted to residential. Fed Reserve was down there etc. You go downtown at 4pm and Main and Grand were clogged with people, cars and buses. Places like City Center SQ and Town Pavilion were bustling most of the day.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:03 pmWas office population higher in the 1980’s? I could see that being possible.
The problem was it was all concentrated right in the core and everything outside the very center of the downtown loop was parking lots. Most of the loop itself was parking lots. I'm not saying it was better back then, just saying the daytime population was more active. And it seemed like there were more conventions. VICA and FAA alone would be in town for many days each and just fill the entire downtown area with people.
Downtown doesn't even have a McDonalds now. Again, I'm not saying it was better. It wasn't. But the core of downtown did feel more like a bustling city at least during the day back then. It was a ghost town after 5 though.
2000's saw us add some important assets (ball room, Sprint Center, P&L) but we failed to push the ball forward on large and luxury hotels.
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Yeah, They were doing pretty well keeping up with the actual convention center infrastructure, but eventually starting really losing ground with a lack of hotels and that still keeps KC a lower tier convention city today. Loews is nice, but it's just not enough. I would say that downtown KC had at least as many good hotels back then as it does today. I mean the Westin, Hyatt and Marriot were all new and higher tier hotels back then vs now, especially what has happened to the Hyatt and I'm sure some of the others were nice too like Crown Plaza.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:05 pmKC was a much more competitive convention city in the 70's, 80's, and even 90's. It was a policy emphasis in the 70s.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:54 pmDowntown KC was pretty busy during the weekday in the late 80's and early 90's. It had a ton more office space and just people working there. Think about how many office buildings that were converted to residential. Fed Reserve was down there etc. You go downtown at 4pm and Main and Grand were clogged with people, cars and buses. Places like City Center SQ and Town Pavilion were bustling most of the day.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:03 pm
Was office population higher in the 1980’s? I could see that being possible.
The problem was it was all concentrated right in the core and everything outside the very center of the downtown loop was parking lots. Most of the loop itself was parking lots. I'm not saying it was better back then, just saying the daytime population was more active. And it seemed like there were more conventions. VICA and FAA alone would be in town for many days each and just fill the entire downtown area with people.
Downtown doesn't even have a McDonalds now. Again, I'm not saying it was better. It wasn't. But the core of downtown did feel more like a bustling city at least during the day back then. It was a ghost town after 5 though.
2000's saw us add some important assets (ball room, Sprint Center, P&L) but we failed to push the ball forward on large and luxury hotels.
And I'm sure not doing something with KCI sooner also contributed.
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jfc no downtown was not busier in the 90s. that's literally the time we talk about how bad it was.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:54 pmDowntown KC was pretty busy during the weekday in the late 80's and early 90's. It had a ton more office space and just people working there. Think about how many office buildings that were converted to residential. Fed Reserve was down there etc. You go downtown at 4pm and Main and Grand were clogged with people, cars and buses. Places like City Center SQ and Town Pavilion were bustling most of the day.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:03 pmWas office population higher in the 1980’s? I could see that being possible.
The problem was it was all concentrated right in the core and everything outside the very center of the downtown loop was parking lots. Most of the loop itself was parking lots. I'm not saying it was better back then, just saying the daytime population was more active. And it seemed like there were more conventions. VICA and FAA alone would be in town for many days each and just fill the entire downtown area with people.
Downtown doesn't even have a McDonalds now. Again, I'm not saying it was better. It wasn't. But the core of downtown did feel more like a bustling city at least during the day back then. It was a ghost town after 5 though.
but lol at "Downtown doesn't even have a McDonalds now."
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This whole convo should go to another thread. Weird reading people talk about the 70s when like 1% of this board was born then so we have no real idea.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:05 pmKC was a much more competitive convention city in the 70's, 80's, and even 90's. It was a policy emphasis in the 70s.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:54 pmDowntown KC was pretty busy during the weekday in the late 80's and early 90's. It had a ton more office space and just people working there. Think about how many office buildings that were converted to residential. Fed Reserve was down there etc. You go downtown at 4pm and Main and Grand were clogged with people, cars and buses. Places like City Center SQ and Town Pavilion were bustling most of the day.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:03 pm
Was office population higher in the 1980’s? I could see that being possible.
The problem was it was all concentrated right in the core and everything outside the very center of the downtown loop was parking lots. Most of the loop itself was parking lots. I'm not saying it was better back then, just saying the daytime population was more active. And it seemed like there were more conventions. VICA and FAA alone would be in town for many days each and just fill the entire downtown area with people.
Downtown doesn't even have a McDonalds now. Again, I'm not saying it was better. It wasn't. But the core of downtown did feel more like a bustling city at least during the day back then. It was a ghost town after 5 though.
2000's saw us add some important assets (ball room, Sprint Center, P&L) but we failed to push the ball forward on large and luxury hotels.