New Chiefs Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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DColeKC
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:56 am If a new stadium costs $1B, I can’t really see how even double the suites covers that cost over the life of the stadium. And there isn’t a large amount of ultra rich here that would pay a super premium for high end suites like Sofi. I honestly can’t see where there would be that amount of extra revenue from a new stadium unless you increase the sheer number of seats.
It's not about individuals being able to afford them, it's about corporate partners and large groups. The Super Bowl ticket allotment for example is mostly for corporate partners and it's difficult to even get a simple game ticket as an individual.

You can not only sell access to suites, you can sell them to sponsors for naming rights. Every current suite has been sold at Arrowhead for years.

That's not the only way they'd see revenue increase though. It's just one of the biggest impacts to the bottom line out of the gate.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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GRID wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:26 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:56 am If a new stadium costs $1B, I can’t really see how even double the suites covers that cost over the life of the stadium. And there isn’t a large amount of ultra rich here that would pay a super premium for high end suites like Sofi. I honestly can’t see where there would be that amount of extra revenue from a new stadium unless you increase the sheer number of seats.
Seems like the Chiefs have a hard enough time selling those middle level club seats now. They are always the last to sell out for games if they sell out at all.
Not accurate. Club level sells out before anything else to season ticket holders. There's a wait list for club level.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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GRID wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:35 am
DColeKC wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:43 am Baltimore has a great pre-game scene in Fells Point which is a short walk to the stadium.

Green Bay is well known for its tailgating as is Buffalo. Clark doesn’t want to make more on the concessions side, he wants more on the premium level tickets side. That’s where the money is. Many fans naturally age out of tailgating and it becomes less important as convenience becomes more valuable.

I think considering LRT to TSC isn’t realistic but an admirable goal at the very least.
Buffalo doesn't have a downtown stadium, so I'm not sure what your point is other than they tailgate? GB has more of a college stadium set up, so again, not really comparable to KC. And come on. Where in Downtown KC would you duplicate Ravens stadium? That part of Baltimore is a vast dead zone like Indy with the stadiums and convention center. KC just doesn't have an area like that where you could put up a stadium except for maybe the west bottoms or along the KCS tracks near Crown Center, but that area is already redeveloping and probably wasn't large enough for an NFL stadium and parking.

And you mean Federal Hill, not Fells Point. You can walk to Federal Hill, but there is just a handful of bars there and they would be busy with our without the stadium there. Fells Point is always bustling and it's not really within walking distance of the stadiums.

Plus again, Baltimore has LRT and MARC commuter rail stops at the stadiums.

I just feel like an NFL stadium in downtown KCMO would be destructive and create yet another massive permanent dead zone in the downtown area. But this horse is pretty dead...
First off, I'm fully against a downtown or near downtown Chiefs stadium, my point was more about tailgating. I've been to a dozen or so Ravens home games and you're right, Federal Hill is what I was referring too. I get that and Fells Point confused. I've always had a complete blast hanging out in Federal Hill before the game, usually at Mothers (I think). That area does a great job moving things outdoors in parking lots to create a tailgating vibe.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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GRID wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:13 pm
Rusty Irish wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:50 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:44 pm
Those cities all have extensive regional transit systems with direct access to the stadiums. KC will never have that. You have to be realistic.

Also, none of those cities have a tailgating culture.

I have gone to a few games in Baltimore who also has an "outskirts of downtown" location. It really makes no difference that it's somewhat close to downtown. It has zero impact on downtown. Everybody drives or takes trains to the stadium and leaves after the game is over. Baltimore's stadium is surrounded by massive parking lots that are just a huge dead zone of the city.

The only place in KC where you could do something like that and not destroy the city is maybe the west bottoms and if you go there, what is the point? Just stay at the TSC.

Build a nice baseball stadium downtown. Keep arrowhead where it's at. If the stadium ever leaves the TSC, it's going to Kansas.
The Camden Yards Sports Complex has 4,000 parking spaces. TSC has 18,000.

Camden Yards has a rail station, a casino next door, a convention center and an arena within a mile. It'll soon have a concert venue, Over 25 hotels within a mile. Trip advisor lists nearly 200 restaurants/bars, I'd say thats somewhats excessive, but its more than Taco Bell and Denny's anyway.
You do realize I live 20 miles from that stadium right? Trust me. That entire area of Baltimore is a dead zone. I bike through the area all the time when it's not in use have gone to NFL games (and many MLB games of course). I'm in the Federal Hill, Downtown, Harbor East and Fells Point areas all the time. They are probably busier on days when the Ravens are not in town. The stadium has little impact. KC does not have a place to locate another giant dead zone adjacent to its downtown. If it could go on the other side of Bartle then that would be more like what Baltimore has. Even the area around Camden Yards is pretty much a dead zone, but at least all the parking for Camden is over at the football stadium.

Guess what's on the other side of the stadiums in Baltimore. Ghetto. Nothing is happening over there. Same would happen east of Paseo.

The idea of putting a stadium east of a baseball stadium downtown sounds like a decent idea, but I don't think people realize how much damage that would actually do to downtown's ability to ever be reintegrated with the neighborhoods to the east. It would not bridge the gap, it would create a wall probably worse then the interstate.
Most of Baltimore is ghetto! LOL
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:56 am If a new stadium costs $1B, I can’t really see how even double the suites covers that cost over the life of the stadium.
They don't, and the team doesn't care because they're not losing money because their original costs are miniscule since they DO NOT OWN the stadium.

Taxpayers own the stadium, and lose those costs. Nearly every demolished stadium in America has STILL had money OWED on it when demolished. I'm not sure why I have to keep repeating this on a development minded forum in the KC area.. but the Chiefs DO NOT OWN the TSC. Nor do the Royals. The TSC is OWNED by Jackson County and local taxpayers. Anything that happens with the EXISTING stadiums will require a taxpayer vote. The Chiefs and Royals, as every major team does, kicks in a fraction of the construction costs in exchange for first dibs at leasing the stadium. It's like you paying for the windows to get tinted on MY new car. I own the car. You paid for my tint. Thank you very much.

Under no circumstance will the TSC, or is the TSC owned by a private sports franchise. They are public facilities, owned by the public, rented to private sports franchises. Currently until 2030. Once that lease expires they'll be up for lease again. Regardless of the team. That's how it works folks. I shouldn't have to explain this over and over again. Money is LOST on stadiums.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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How about the KCATA/Vine site for football?
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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shinatoo wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:50 am How about the KCATA/Vine site for football?
Gotta think that if the neighborhood nixed the baseball stadium despite it dovetailing nicely with the academy, they won't want football either.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:49 pm

Most of Baltimore is ghetto! LOL
Sort of but not really. Baltimore has a lot of good areas. Basically anything near the harbor. It honestly has more good higher density urban neighborhoods than KCMO does. But yes, it also has a lot of ghetto and crime too, just like KCMO does.

Again my only point is that downtown KCMO is already isolated from the west and north and really only has one option for it to be reconnected back to the city again and that is generally to the east. I personally feel like a baseball stadium, if done right, could help reconnect downtown to the east, but if you add in a football stadium, the massive footprint for the barely used venue and its parking lots (even if much smaller than TSC) will just be too much and create a gigantic barrier. But I have said that now a dozen times lol.

The NFL stadium doesn't need to be anywhere near downtown. Who cares if nothing is near it. It's used so rarely. Have you ever spent time near NFL stadiums in Baltimore, Cleveland, Pittsburgh etc They are nothing but gigantic dead zones. The cities look the same as KC on national TV, they show the stadium, they show the skyline. They show plenty of skyline shots when the Chiefs are on national TV.

The stadium doesn't have to be downtown and it shouldn't be downtown. Leave it where it is and clean up one of the primary entryways into metro KC (I-70 from the east) instead of letting it deteriorate. The TSC doesn't have to be a shithole area. The stadium area has the infrastructure of a rural area and has no landscaping or anything. And that's the fault of Jackson County and the city and the state.

Guess who would be in charge of infrastructure around a downtown football stadium right next to a crumbling I-70 and Paseo??? Why would it be any different than 50 years at the TSC?

And back to Baltimore DCole. At least Maryland properly maintains and has upgrades I-95 and and I-395 (which directly serves the stadiums). I can see it now, a new stadium in 2030 next to I-70 near Paseo along a stretch of 70 that STILL needs to be freaking totally rebuilt and has needed it since 1990.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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I just don't get it.

The NFL has a salary cap and money is distributed fairly evenly. Most owners take money out of the club.

I understand franchises are a scarce resource so we have to compete to keep them.

But here we're effectively spending money to give the hunt family more money.

No one is arguing that the chiefs can't meet the salary cap right?

At least with the royals there's a plausible argument that increased investment will allow for more investment on other stuff.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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Grid, how do you view Paseo East then? It’s just as big as Paseo west but with all institutional uses and few e/w connections. It’s an even bigger barrier than a stadium would be. There is nothing to connect to past Paseo directly unless you go “up and over” via Independence Blvd.

Again, the benefits is shared resources and infrastructure. You also can drive spin off development in Paseo West which isn’t likely to happen otherwise. You also can make a much better case for an E/W Streetcar + or LRT line that connects east side with all of the convention and tourism assets of downtown.

With a downtown stadium, we can start to view it as an event asset in a way that arrowhead isn’t today. Concerts, meetings, event rentals, performances, etc. driving more hotel nights, more restaurants, more events.

If we get a roofed stadium (not that I expect that’s in budget), a downtown location also seriously opens up the possibility of National sports events which I just don’t see going to Arrowhead.
Last edited by normalthings on Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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I understand that both sides of Paseo between Indep Ave and 70 is just a mess of light industrial and low income, low density housing and vacant land. Other than the few apartment buildings directly on Paseo, it all could go away. There is nothing left of the original built environment there thanks to the freeways.

I guess I see what you are saying about shared infrastructure (parking lots basically), but do you really want to just wipe away all that stuff to put up a stadium and parking lots when you already have 20,000 parking spaces paved at 435 and 70?

I would prefer to see it organically redevelop a block at at time into apartments etc. It could start at Paseo and work back toward downtown. I just think if you put a stadium and tear down blocks of stuff for parking, you will never see organic development east of the loop. You will just see a lot of things torn down for parking lots.

If you put a football stadium and even minimal parking (10,000 spaces), you are saying that you know that downtown will never again interact with the east side north of 70. I mean if you don't put up a stadium and you do something with the east loop to remove that barrier, I can see the West side of Paseo blossoming into a neighborhood of some type and then the east side of Paseo would start to gentrify eventually and then you have a true urban grid from downtown into the east.

That's my opinion anyway.
Last edited by GRID on Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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I agree with grid.

Also, we haven't seen anything from the royals yet. There's still a real chance they'll try to surround it with parking lots.

Let's see development plans.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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I think that if you put up a baseball stadium in the East Village, you will see rapid development of 5-6 story apartment building blocks east of 70. Especially if something is done to improve the east loop. Something similar to all the new low rise development on the other side of Coors Field in Denver. If you put a football stadium east of 70, that's not going to happen, it will remain light industry mostly. Nobody actually wants to live directly next to giant stadiums and parking lots.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by alejandro46 »

Highly endorse NOT moving Arrowhead. Especially not to Downtown. Too much parking. Even fewer uses per year than a baseball stadium. Heck no.

We are talking 80000 people vs. 30-40k. Big difference.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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And when is last time Royals had over 30k or over 20k actually lol.

Most royals games could use the same parking as any typical event at the arena. The only time there might be some minor issues are dates when the stadium and arena have events at same time.

You are correct though. NFL is a pretty big difference.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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GRID wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:52 pm I think that if you put up a baseball stadium in the East Village, you will see rapid development of 5-6 story apartment building blocks east of 70. Especially if something is done to improve the east loop. Something similar to all the new low rise development on the other side of Coors Field in Denver. If you put a football stadium east of 70, that's not going to happen, it will remain light industry mostly. Nobody actually wants to live directly next to giant stadiums and parking lots.
Like maybe if they develop it? Cordish is on tower three with subsidized garages after decades but you think I don’t even know what you think.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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WoodDraw wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:05 pm I just don't get it.

The NFL has a salary cap and money is distributed fairly evenly. Most owners take money out of the club.

I understand franchises are a scarce resource so we have to compete to keep them.

But here we're effectively spending money to give the hunt family more money.

No one is arguing that the chiefs can't meet the salary cap right?

At least with the royals there's a plausible argument that increased investment will allow for more investment on other stuff.

You have to keep up with what fans want or else you’ll be on the wrong side on the league before you know it. It’s just like any other business when it comes to maximizing profits. Doesn’t matter they don’t own the stadium outright.

A city having a successful NFL team does more for the city than you can put on a spreadsheet. If you don’t take care of that asset, you risk losing it and while unlikely, that would have such a massive negative impact on KC.

Once again, I’m 1000% against a new football stadium and even more against a new football stadium near downtown.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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People do want to live near baseball stadiums. It’s just a different energy and experience. Baseball teams practice in their stadiums and obviously have far more game days. I don’t see the point of anyone wanting to live near a NFL stadium though. Not next door at least.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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WoodDraw wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 pm
GRID wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:52 pm I think that if you put up a baseball stadium in the East Village, you will see rapid development of 5-6 story apartment building blocks east of 70. Especially if something is done to improve the east loop. Something similar to all the new low rise development on the other side of Coors Field in Denver. If you put a football stadium east of 70, that's not going to happen, it will remain light industry mostly. Nobody actually wants to live directly next to giant stadiums and parking lots.
Like maybe if they develop it? Cordish is on tower three with subsidized garages after decades but you think I don’t even know what you think.
That's why I said 5 over ones. You know wood frame low rise stuff. I think you would see that type of development and that's fine for the west paseo area. Do I think there will be a bunch of 25 story towers? Not in Paseo West and I'm not even sure they would happen inside the loop in East Village.

Maybe one tower 5*-10 years after the stadium opens? I mean that's about the pace of those types of towers in Downtown KC and EV would be competing with P&L, Crossroads etc. So, not I'm not sold on that type of development coming just because the stadium moves downtown. But I hope some towers go up in east village and it's not all just 5 over ones.
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Re: New Chiefs Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:44 pm People do want to live near baseball stadiums. It’s just a different energy and experience. Baseball teams practice in their stadiums and obviously have far more game days. I don’t see the point of anyone wanting to live near a NFL stadium though. Not next door at least.
That's what I said. However if you look around the country, there are very few apartment building directly across from baseball stadiums too, Washington DC is becoming quite the exception although the lots closest to the stadium have been the last to develop. Same with Denver, the closer the property was to the stadium, the later it has developed. San Diego's stadium was built directly next to an already booming area.

I think it has more to do with land use, land value and who controls the land directly around stadiums. The land is often more valuable for parking than for development.
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