KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by AlkaliAxel »

When's the study gonna be done?
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by DaveKCMO »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:56 pm When's the study gonna be done?
12 months.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

@GRID @everyone else who said streetcar will have no impact on stadiums.

I thought about this some more. We don't necessarily need and probably won't build a system that can move massive amounts to/from a stadium. However, it provides an additional option for those in the core to get to a game. I'm thinking some out of town fans staying downtown, etc.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 1:21 am @GRID @everyone else who said streetcar will have no impact on stadiums.

I thought about this some more. We don't necessarily need and probably won't build a system that can move massive amounts to/from a stadium. However, it provides an additional option for those in the core to get to a game. I'm thinking some out of town fans staying downtown, etc.
Yep. That’s why I think the attendance floor will be higher than the current Kauffman. Because there will always be a large base within free streetcar distance of a game.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

normalthings wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 1:21 am @GRID @everyone else who said streetcar will have no impact on stadiums.

I thought about this some more. We don't necessarily need and probably won't build a system that can move massive amounts to/from a stadium. However, it provides an additional option for those in the core to get to a game. I'm thinking some out of town fans staying downtown, etc.
Are we talking about DT baseball or Arrowhead? For DT baseball I do have real concerns about the level of service that could be delivered on some game days. If one day Linwood gets upgraded to streetcar and we use dedicated lanes and longer platforms to have those 5 or 7 car train sets then maybe the level of service provided to Arrowhead would begin to move the needle.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

There was an advisory meeting this week. Streetcar or Bus modes. Likely that there will be more than 1 project that comes out of the study (ie. streetcar project and then a bus project).
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:48 pm Friend sent me this

https://kcmo.mysocialpinpoint.com/ridek ... -study/map
I'm sure an engineer has studied it and said that rail can go on 39th Street, but it sure seems narrow as it is. Not sure if there is any other alternative though.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

IMO, smartest route is 39th to Broadway, then up to Linwood and over.

You get a jolt into the heart of midtown, and also get MCC covered with transit.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheSmokinPun »

Image

Zero irony from this person on how many neighborhoods it would pass east/west.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by GRID »

TheSmokinPun wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:23 am Image

Zero irony from this person on how many neighborhoods it would pass east/west.
Yea, but they are right. It doesn't make sense to extend it to the stadiums. Going east of Van Brunt with a tram makes absolutely no sense. That's a very expensive extension through pretty much nothing but industrial areas. If Kauffman is moved then you are talking about building a tram for a venue that is used a dozen times a year and attracts massive crowds that would make a tram useless, especially after events.

And if Kauffman did stay, that track they plan to use is so far away from the stadium that again, nobody would use it. The only rail that makes any sense whatsoever to serve either stadium is LRT in a new dedicated RoW probably closer to I-70 and it would need to go east of the stadiums as well.

I don't get why everybody wants to extend the streetcars past the urban core. I would spend the money and build another north south route in the urban core before starting to extend it regional destinations. The Main Street Line was not built to be anything more than a tram "lite" system. It's not even in it's own center running RoW etc so I don't see how it would ever be upgraded to the spine of regional system of trams that turn into regional LRT type vehicles outside the core like you see in Houston and Dallas, and in other countries etc. You would need a center running main street line that had longer platforms etc to accommodate the speeds, frequencies and longer trains for that.

KC just needs a high quality regional bus system for regional stuff.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by taxi »

Picture, if you will, yourself sitting in the street car, returning to downtown from a losing Chiefs game. It is packed and you are surrounded by drunk, angry fans. I would rather walk. Or even crawl back, naked, over broken glass.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

taxi wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:55 am Picture, if you will, yourself sitting in the street car, returning to downtown from a losing Chiefs game. It is packed and you are surrounded by drunk, angry fans. I would rather walk. Or even crawl back, naked, over broken glass.
Picture driving down the interstate with those same fans behind the wheels of other vehicles.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

GRID wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:41 am Yea, but they are right. It doesn't make sense to extend it to the stadiums. Going east of Van Brunt with a tram makes absolutely no sense. That's a very expensive extension through pretty much nothing but industrial areas. If Kauffman is moved then you are talking about building a tram for a venue that is used a dozen times a year and attracts massive crowds that would make a tram useless, especially after events.

And if Kauffman did stay, that track they plan to use is so far away from the stadium that again, nobody would use it. The only rail that makes any sense whatsoever to serve either stadium is LRT in a new dedicated RoW probably closer to I-70 and it would need to go east of the stadiums as well.

I don't get why everybody wants to extend the streetcars past the urban core. I would spend the money and build another north south route in the urban core before starting to extend it regional destinations. The Main Street Line was not built to be anything more than a tram "lite" system. It's not even in it's own center running RoW etc so I don't see how it would ever be upgraded to the spine of regional system of trams that turn into regional LRT type vehicles outside the core like you see in Houston and Dallas, and in other countries etc. You would need a center running main street line that had longer platforms etc to accommodate the speeds, frequencies and longer trains for that.

KC just needs a high quality regional bus system for regional stuff.
I agree that going all the way to the stadiums is a lot of investment for limited payoff once you get past the populated East Side areas and into the industrial stuff. Linwood is a blank slate and wide. I could see bigger platforms, longer trainsets, dedicated lane on Linwood. Ofc you're right that we've already made decisions that will create a ceiling for capacity on Main which should be the natural spine of the system. But building future lines to a higher standard that is closer to LRT is not mutually exclusive with some mixed traffic segments and continue calling it "streetcar" since that term has such a strong brand in KC right now.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by GRID »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:05 pm I agree that going all the way to the stadiums is a lot of investment for limited payoff once you get past the populated East Side areas and into the industrial stuff. Linwood is a blank slate and wide. I could see bigger platforms, longer trainsets, dedicated lane on Linwood. Ofc you're right that we've already made decisions that will create a ceiling for capacity on Main which should be the natural spine of the system. But building future lines to a higher standard that is closer to LRT is not mutually exclusive with some mixed traffic segments and continue calling it "streetcar" since that term has such a strong brand in KC right now.
That is true. I think you have room on Linwood to do a more robust rail line that is a bit more LRTish than the curb running Main Street line. Then it could transition into it's own RoW along I-70 to carry it across the Blue River and to the sports complex.

Linwood might be a great E/W option, although you would likely terminate it at Main St where a streetcar on 39th would go all the way to KU Med if they can figure out how to put it on such a narrow street through Volker.

I still think it would have been ideal build the Main street track so that could accommodate several other lines that overlayed it. Then you could have nearly all the streetcars running down main but they might go different places like KU Med, Linwood, West Side etc. Everything would feed into Main and that would also give main much higher frequencies.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:51 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:05 pm I agree that going all the way to the stadiums is a lot of investment for limited payoff once you get past the populated East Side areas and into the industrial stuff. Linwood is a blank slate and wide. I could see bigger platforms, longer trainsets, dedicated lane on Linwood. Ofc you're right that we've already made decisions that will create a ceiling for capacity on Main which should be the natural spine of the system. But building future lines to a higher standard that is closer to LRT is not mutually exclusive with some mixed traffic segments and continue calling it "streetcar" since that term has such a strong brand in KC right now.
That is true. I think you have room on Linwood to do a more robust rail line that is a bit more LRTish than the curb running Main Street line. Then it could transition into it's own RoW along I-70 to carry it across the Blue River and to the sports complex.

Linwood might be a great E/W option, although you would likely terminate it at Main St where a streetcar on 39th would go all the way to KU Med if they can figure out how to put it on such a narrow street through Volker.

I still think it would have been ideal build the Main street track so that could accommodate several other lines that overlayed it. Then you could have nearly all the streetcars running down main but they might go different places like KU Med, Linwood, West Side etc. Everything would feed into Main and that would also give main much higher frequencies.

I prefer the Broadway Blvd option that was presented in the study. Agree 39th street is narrow, but it leaves things open for a JoCo expansion later.

Hopefully we can remove Gomers and put in a LRT slip lane!

Normalthings dream world has a cut & cover tunnel between Southwest Trafficway & Stateline rd.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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taxi wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:55 am Picture, if you will, yourself sitting in the street car, returning to downtown from a losing Chiefs game. It is packed and you are surrounded by drunk, angry fans. I would rather walk. Or even crawl back, naked, over broken glass.
Just hop across the state after a Cubs vs.Cardinals game to experience this. I tell you from personal experience, that shit's amazing.
Last edited by Chris Stritzel on Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by Chris Stritzel »

I get why some prefer Linwood, but 31st seems more suitable in my view for high-capacity transit. The built environment is there already and it's only a block north of Linwood, so you'd be serving the same passengers. Additionally, both streets are wide enough to have dedicated right-of-ways for a streetcar/light rail system. The only difference is 31st would become one lane in each direction with no street parking while Linwood would likely retain parking.

West of Main, I like the Broadway alignment and 39th. Broadway is perfectly suitable for this since there's a growing residential base and opportunities for more businesses to move in and development to take place. The street is also perfectly wide and would benefit from a street diet as a result.

Regarding 39th, yes it's narrow and concerns over traffic and parking are genuine, but as we have seen with the downtown streetcar, people will park further away and ride the streetcar to, or near, their destination. The same will be the case for 39th. People who live in Downtown or near the Plaza wouldn't need to drive over here. They could simply board a streetcar, transfer, and head over without needing to find a place to park. Those who would be inconvenienced by such an alignment are those from the suburbs, but they'll get by. So what I'm advocating for on 39th is the elimination of parallel parking in favor of rail or dedicated BRT lane.

TLDR: 31st is more suitable than Linwood because of existing building stock. Broadway is a great alignment idea due to a growing base. 39th is great too, but will require a change in habits by suburbanites and urban residents alike.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by daGOAT »

31st already has the benefit of being a semi high frequency transit corridors that locals are used to using as well.
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