Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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normalthings
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by normalthings »

Sheraton going away
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KCDowntown
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCDowntown »

normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:20 am Sheraton going away
Looks like it might be turned into a Hilton...

Here's a permit

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:28 pm
MidtownCat wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:05 pm …The idea that a trolley stop…
How to tell everyone to not take your statements seriously…without telling everyone to not take your statements seriously.
I refuse to dignify his responses. It's just that handful of people on here who hate any optimism.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:22 am
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:28 pm
MidtownCat wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:05 pm …The idea that a trolley stop…
How to tell everyone to not take your statements seriously…without telling everyone to not take your statements seriously.
I refuse to dignify his responses. It's just that handful of people on here who hate any optimism.
Thanks for not dignifying the response by…responding. Lol.

Gotta just love a twenty five year old kid on here pretending to be an urban planning expert.

Your Starbucks post on here a couple pages back was humorous though. Yeah, “This is actually a huge blow”.

And this has nothing to do with “optimism”, it has to do with not naively dismissing the reality of this situation as a BS exaggeration for the better part of the last 10+ years, which of course, you would have no context of.

The problem with your arrogance toward the matter is that absolutely nothing you have suggested will have any significant, discernible effect on restoring the Plaza outside of some wishful thinking. But keep pretending that redeveloping the Winstead’s lot and the Plaza tennis courts with imaginary concepts are going to be some sort of panacea for solving the massive tenancy problem and overall deterioration of the district that has been ongoing for over a decade now.
Last edited by MidtownCat on Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

Just to defend MidtownCat a bit, I don't believe it's fair to depict him as hating optimism or that his narrative is bullshit. He's actually the one person singly responsible for uncovering the West Terrace stairs at Case Park and cleaning that area up on a regular basis so people can explore and enjoy that archaeology. He took that upon himself to get permission from the Parks Department and organize volunteers to get it done.

He has made a positive influence on Kansas City and loves this city a lot.

You may not agree always with what he says, but you should listen to his point of view. He has a good understanding of the built environment and architecture.

We should also not be so quick to insult people for their youth and inexperience. It seeks to discourage their involvement in public matters, or speaking their mind. We need more young people to care about our city and world.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Cratedigger »

FangKC wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:52 am He's actually the one person singly responsible for uncovering the West Terrace stairs at Case Park and cleaning that area up on a regular basis so people can explore and enjoy that archaeology. He took that upon himself to get permission from the Parks Department and organize volunteers to get it done.
Oh wow, thank you MidtownCat!
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by kcjak »

KCDowntown wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:29 am
normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:20 am Sheraton going away
Looks like it might be turned into a Hilton...

Here's a permit

KCDowntown
This is good news. With all of the negative publicity (at least locally) about shootings and parties in their dilapidated rooms, not to mention the decay on the exterior, there is nowhere to go but up.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

Go away for ten years and then come back to the plaza. I think for people in KC it's hard to really notice how much it has lost its charm and appeal and seems to just have way less "bustle" than it used to. I really don't know if the streetcar will make much of a difference, hopefully it will though.

I think KCMO just needs a lot more urban redevelopment, gentrification, infill, whatever you want to call it. For KCMO to economically sustain the plaza, downtown and any new midtown retail development, new residential growth is going to have to ramp up even more, especially now with the loss of many office workers.

You are starting to see a LOT of new high density apartment growth in the suburbs (which is all subsidized as well) all while KCMO has become rather anti development over the past few years. That's not going to end well.
Last edited by GRID on Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by trexel94 »

KCDowntown wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:29 am
normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:20 am Sheraton going away
Looks like it might be turned into a Hilton...

Here's a permit

KCDowntown
I'm assuming its the name brand Hilton and not a subsidiary? If so, it will be one of only two in the metro.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

Hilton could be an upgrade or a downgrade as they seem all over the place. Although that property has really deteriorated, so anything might be an upgrade. I really hope they put some money into it. It used to be a nice hotel.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Link2 »

trexel94 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:44 pm
KCDowntown wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:29 am
normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:20 am Sheraton going away
Looks like it might be turned into a Hilton...

Here's a permit

KCDowntown
I'm assuming its the name brand Hilton and not a subsidiary? If so, it will be one of only two in the metro.
You're correct; it will officially be named 'Hilton Kansas City Country Club Plaza' beginning in November iirc. Full rooms renovation begins after Thanksgiving, with an anticipated completion of May 19, 2023. Currently working on exterior, as well as lobby, pool, fitness center.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat »

GRID wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:43 pm Go away for ten years and then come back to the plaza. I think for people in KC it's hard to really notice how much it has lost its charm and appeal and seems to just have way less "bustle" than it used to. I really don't know if the streetcar will make much of a difference, hopefully it will though.

I think KCMO just needs a lot more urban redevelopment, gentrification, infill, whatever you want to call it. For KCMO to economically sustain the plaza, downtown and any new midtown retail development, new residential growth is going to have to ramp up even more, especially now with the loss of many office workers.

You are starting to see a LOT of new high density apartment growth in the suburbs (which is all subsidized as well) all while KCMO has become rather anti development over the past few years. That's not going to end well.
What do you contribute the loss of charm and appeal to? Obviously that's not tied to one chain tenant over the other.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Just took two visiting friends from Denver around the Plaza this past weekend and they thought it was amazing. I don’t think the Plaza has lost any charm.

Again, if the Nordstrom debacle caused by Covid didn’t happen, then I don’t think anyone would think differently. They just need to fill that Nordstrom lot and everyone will calm down. It did alot of damage to peoples psyche and perceptions.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

It's still an impressive area mainly because it remains architecturally unique. I may have used the wrong words. The plaza is still charming, it just doesn't have the same bustle it once had and I don't think it has quite the same local pride it once had. I think people in KC are just as likely to take out of towners to the Legends or some new shopping center in JoCo as they are to the plaza, if not more so.

The retail tenants are generally pretty bland with very little upscale and there does not seem to be much nightlife or entertainment there anymore.

So that's my point that urban KCMO just needs more growth. The plaza has seen modest growth, but it's been kind of slow growth for such a cool area. In some ways, I think competition from other parts of KCMO such as downtown has effected the plaza. There is also a crime problem (even if only perceived) that may be effecting the plaza some.

I think it can come back, but it just does not feel like the "lively" urban area that it should be and IMO that it used to be.

But of course if you have never been there, It's a nice area and will always be impressive to out of towners. The plaza is just not something most people would expect in a midwestern city.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat »

KCPowercat wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:13 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:43 pm Go away for ten years and then come back to the plaza. I think for people in KC it's hard to really notice how much it has lost its charm and appeal and seems to just have way less "bustle" than it used to. I really don't know if the streetcar will make much of a difference, hopefully it will though.

I think KCMO just needs a lot more urban redevelopment, gentrification, infill, whatever you want to call it. For KCMO to economically sustain the plaza, downtown and any new midtown retail development, new residential growth is going to have to ramp up even more, especially now with the loss of many office workers.

You are starting to see a LOT of new high density apartment growth in the suburbs (which is all subsidized as well) all while KCMO has become rather anti development over the past few years. That's not going to end well.
What do you contribute the loss of charm and appeal to? Obviously that's not tied to one chain tenant over the other.
How do you lose two major luxury department stores in Halls and Saks 5th Avenue and virtually all luxury retail, Burberry, etc, all the home goods in Williams and Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, etc, lose a movie theatre, have a gaping vacant lot terminating one end of the district, and overall have close to 20% retail vacancy and not have the district lose its charm.

Outside of some silly anecdotes about touring some out of towners from Denver around and them thinking it was “amazing”, the Plaza is a shell of its former self when it was a true regional destination and the jewel of the city.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat »

I just don't contribute charm to a retailer name but probably hanging up too much on the term. We all have witnessed the retail change there.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:08 pm It's still an impressive area mainly because it remains architecturally unique. I may have used the wrong words. The plaza is still charming, it just doesn't have the same bustle it once had and I don't think it has quite the same local pride it once had. I think people in KC are just as likely to take out of towners to the Legends or some new shopping center in JoCo as they are to the plaza, if not more so.

The retail tenants are generally pretty bland with very little upscale and there does not seem to be much nightlife or entertainment there anymore.

So that's my point that urban KCMO just needs more growth. The plaza has seen modest growth, but it's been kind of slow growth for such a cool area. In some ways, I think competition from other parts of KCMO such as downtown has effected the plaza. There is also a crime problem (even if only perceived) that may be effecting the plaza some.

I think it can come back, but it just does not feel like the "lively" urban area that it should be and IMO that it used to be.

But of course if you have never been there, It's a nice area and will always be impressive to out of towners. The plaza is just not something most people would expect in a midwestern city.
Agree for the most part. I would say interest in developing the Plaza remains high but most proposals are killed.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FlippantCitizen »

MidtownCat wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:19 pm
How do you lose two major luxury department stores in Halls and Saks 5th Avenue and virtually all luxury retail, Burberry, etc, all the home goods in Williams and Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, etc, lose a movie theatre, have a gaping vacant lot terminating one end of the district, and overall have close to 20% retail vacancy and not have the district lose its charm.

Outside of some silly anecdotes about touring some out of towners from Denver around and them thinking it was “amazing”, the Plaza is a shell of its former self when it was a true regional destination and the jewel of the city.
The buildings, streetscape, fountains etc. are still charming. In terms of the Plaza functioning as the upscale shopping district it was intended to be and has been in the past… I would argue it’s no longer functioning more than it’s no longer charming.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

KCPowercat wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:31 pm I just don't contribute charm to a retailer name but probably hanging up too much on the term. We all have witnessed the retail change there.
I'm saying that beyond its unique architecture, it's no longer all that impressive. It just doesn't have that same pull it once did where people want to just be there to people watch etc. Going clear back to when I still lived in KC, the plaza seems to have gone down a little every year to the point where today it's closer to being zona rosa than a thriving urban district.

Compared to how it used to be, it feels "dead" to me every time I go there. When I used to go to the plaza, there was something about that place that made you want to quickly park the car and just walk around and enjoy the place. There was always so many people on the sidewalks, live music in several different places, the theaters, window shopping the high end retailers or walking through them.

I really don't think the plaza has that type of appeal anymore. Even the thanksgiving lighting ceremony has dwindled down to like 10k people showing up. I've been a few times in the past ten years and it's nothing like it was.

I'm sure this will all be taken as I'm just hating on KC again from the east coast, but it's just my opinion from somebody that literally grew up in South Plaza. Still love the plaza and hope it will once again be the bustling urban mecca of that part of the midwest.
Last edited by GRID on Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

It's the most recent owner peoples, a generic mall owner approaching bankruptcy territory. They haven't done a single thing to elevate it to next level.

They are milking the Plaza's history but not contributing to it. At least when Highwoods owned it they replaced the sidewalks with brick, added B&N, McCormicks buildings and attracted desirable retailers.
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