Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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KCPowercat
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat »

There is dense residential every direction?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by alejandro46 »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:01 am There is dense residential every direction?
The Plaza is a single/double story bowl area exclusively commercial development. By lacking residential in the plaza (not around the Plaza) the Plaza is cut off and particularly dead during certain hours of the day.

Surrounding areas are cut off from the Plaza by large roads, Brush Creek, and a steep hill. By not having a mix of uses as well as a grocery/convenience/pharmacy store, the Plaza is too heavily dependent on commercial draws and traffic. What is happening to larger commercial trends is impacting the Plaza no different from other shopping centers and malls because they failed to diversify.

So they need more residential.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by msmith011 »

I hope the empty lot where Nordstrom was going becomes either apartments or condos with ground-level retail. Although, I have heard rumors that Nordstrom only signed a 3-year lease extension at Oak Park Mall to buy more time while they figure out what to do in KC. If true, it's clear Nordstrom isn't confident in staying at Oak Park Mall long-term, which, in my opinion, leaves only the Plaza and Town Center as the only viable backups, in my opinion.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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alejandro46 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:34 am
KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:01 am There is dense residential every direction?
The Plaza is a single/double story bowl area exclusively commercial development. By lacking residential in the plaza (not around the Plaza) the Plaza is cut off and particularly dead during certain hours of the day.

Surrounding areas are cut off from the Plaza by large roads, Brush Creek, and a steep hill. By not having a mix of uses as well as a grocery/convenience/pharmacy store, the Plaza is too heavily dependent on commercial draws and traffic. What is happening to larger commercial trends is impacting the Plaza no different from other shopping centers and malls because they failed to diversify.

So they need more residential.
they could mix the retailers to support the neighborhood and utilize that surrounding residential. they don't need it in the CCP proper that one developer runs to make that work. Not that I want it to get away from being a shopping hub as well but that has always been my beef with plaza retailer mix as one who lived on the plaza for years.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

msmith011 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:50 am I hope the empty lot where Nordstrom was going becomes either apartments or condos with ground-level retail. Although, I have heard rumors that Nordstrom only signed a 3-year lease extension at Oak Park Mall to buy more time while they figure out what to do in KC. If true, it's clear Nordstrom isn't confident in staying at Oak Park Mall long-term, which, in my opinion, leaves only the Plaza and Town Center as the only viable backups, in my opinion.
Nordstroms would make a great anchor to kickoff national retailer presence downtown someday. Even if a small store focused on services.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by alejandro46 »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:05 am
alejandro46 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:34 am
KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:01 am There is dense residential every direction?
The Plaza is a single/double story bowl area exclusively commercial development. By lacking residential in the plaza (not around the Plaza) the Plaza is cut off and particularly dead during certain hours of the day.

Surrounding areas are cut off from the Plaza by large roads, Brush Creek, and a steep hill. By not having a mix of uses as well as a grocery/convenience/pharmacy store, the Plaza is too heavily dependent on commercial draws and traffic. What is happening to larger commercial trends is impacting the Plaza no different from other shopping centers and malls because they failed to diversify.

So they need more residential.
they could mix the retailers to support the neighborhood and utilize that surrounding residential. they don't need it in the CCP proper that one developer runs to make that work. Not that I want it to get away from being a shopping hub as well but that has always been my beef with plaza retailer mix as one who lived on the plaza for years.
I mean, Simon or whoever it is now can't just plop down whatever store they want. They can only give so many concessions without recking their whole balance sheet. I mean they could try to spec a pharmacy or grocery store type space, but that would probably be risky without a tenant lined up. There is plenty of retail spaces on the plaza that can be replaced with 2-3 floor apartments over retail. It doesn't have to all be 15 story towers.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat »

I just don't see that making much impact over and above the tons of residents already walkable to the stores.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by msmith011 »

The Plaza just posted about new stores on its Instagram. Upscale bedding and home store Parachute Home is opening where White House | Black Market was. Great win for the Plaza. Only 20-ish stores nationwide.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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msmith011 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:21 pm The Plaza just posted about new stores on its Instagram. Upscale bedding and home store Parachute Home is opening where White House | Black Market was. Great win for the Plaza. Only 20-ish stores nationwide.
People love to extremely exaggerate how "bad" the Plaza is. It's doing fine.
-Lane4 Mega-apartment complex coming soon
-New Belleview apartment opening soon
-New Aloft hotel opening
-Huge streetcar station incoming
-Church parcel going be re-developed
-Many new idea's from city to re-develop tennis courts, streets, Nordtrom spot, etc.

Plaza will be fine and continues to get better. Narrative is BS.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:17 am I just don't see that making much impact over and above the tons of residents already walkable to the stores.
I would agree with this. I do think the core of the plaza needs some housing, but it's probably not going to add much to the viability of the retail. The issues effecting retail on the plaza are much bigger than just adding a few hundred apartments here and there.

The plaza needs more local retail for people that live there, but it also still needs to be a destination for suburbanites and tourists which I don't think it really is anymore. I think KC's high end retail is now way too established in JoCo and JoCo is overbuilt. That's why Nordstrom's was pretty important to maybe pull people from JoCo within the 435 beltway back to the plaza. The plaza needs a handful of stores like that. And it also needs a high quality theater, maybe a comedy club etc.

But most of all it needs to be re-imagined. Make the plaza a restaurant destination. Turn Nichols Road into a pedestrian corridor and push the sidewalks out to allow for outdoor dining. Make Pennsylvania and Nichols an urban "plaza" and have a stage with live music happening nearly all the time etc.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:39 pm [The Plaza] still needs to be a destination for suburbanites and tourists which I don't think it really is anymore.
That is not true. Nobody views it as on par with Town Center or the suburbacuck complex out in Wyandotte.

People are just freaking out because Nordstrom fell apart during the middle of the pandemic.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:46 pm
GRID wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:39 pm [The Plaza] still needs to be a destination for suburbanites and tourists which I don't think it really is anymore.
That is not true. Nobody views it as on par with Town Center or the suburbacuck complex out in Wyandotte.

People are just freaking out because Nordstrom fell apart during the middle of the pandemic.
But is it really? People from Lee's Summit or Overland Park or Liberty jump in the car to go "shopping" at the plaza? I don't really think the plaza has much of a metropolitan draw anymore. I could be wrong, I'm guessing the only times people from the suburbs go there is when they are showing off the city to out of towners or for the art fair or something.

I really do think that the plaza needs some dramatic changes. Making part of it a pedestrian only experience would be one way to really change things up.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by shinatoo »

Alex is correct in this argument.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by dukuboy1 »

The Plaza still has appeal as a destination, edprvuslly for dining & specific shopping. It did lose a lot of its luster when the high end retailers relocated or just dropped out of the KC market. It had a reputation at one point as like a Midwest Rodeo drive of sorts. Whether you think that or not it did carry with it that reputation. Personally would love to see that high end boutique vibe return along with the dining & upper scale night life
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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dukuboy1 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:17 am The Plaza still has appeal as a destination, edprvuslly for dining & specific shopping. It did lose a lot of its luster when the high end retailers relocated or just dropped out of the KC market. It had a reputation at one point as like a Midwest Rodeo drive of sorts. Whether you think that or not it did carry with it that reputation. Personally would love to see that high end boutique vibe return along with the dining & upper scale night life
That's what I mean. The plaza doesn't really seem "upscale". It's the same stuff in suburban shopping centers. Actually, you will probably find more upscale stuff in the suburbs. And dining and nightlife seems much lesser than it was in the past. I think downtown has taken a lot of that away from the plaza, but there is no reason the plaza couldn't get like a "second wind".
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

msmith011 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:21 pm The Plaza just posted about new stores on its Instagram. Upscale bedding and home store Parachute Home is opening where White House | Black Market was. Great win for the Plaza. Only 20-ish stores nationwide.
Parachute Home shows up here...
https://www.construction.com/projects/? ... %20home%20


But it is time for Plaza to mature into more than mostly a mall with much broader multi-use within Plaza boundaries. Can be both a true quaint urban neighborhood that is still a regional draw but more importantly... doesn't depend as much on a regional draw.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Main 3 properties the Plaza should develop

1. The Nordstrom property
2. The tennis courts
3. The Winsteads property

You do all that, you suddenly get very dense & even more foot traffic when you throw in Lane4's massive project too
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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GRID wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:39 pm I would agree with this. I do think the core of the plaza needs some housing, but it's probably not going to add much to the viability of the retail. The issues effecting retail on the plaza are much bigger than just adding a few hundred apartments here and there.

The plaza needs more local retail for people that live there, but it also still needs to be a destination for suburbanites and tourists which I don't think it really is anymore. I think KC's high end retail is now way too established in JoCo and JoCo is overbuilt. That's why Nordstrom's was pretty important to maybe pull people from JoCo within the 435 beltway back to the plaza. The plaza needs a handful of stores like that. And it also needs a high quality theater, maybe a comedy club etc.
As the center of wealth in KC moved to the SW, the high end retail followed. Companies like Crate and Barrel probably didn't see the demographics for two stores in the area, so they put there store in a location where it was more accessible to people who could afford their products. This scenario has most likely been repeated by many high end retailers moving into the area. The Plaza is, unfortunately, landlocked when it comes to wealth. There is a very wealthy demographic immediately to the S and SW but these are large homes on large lots so the population density is not that high and the families probably a bit older. To the north and east, the incomes drop off quickly and dramatically, to the west they drop but not as dramatically. In south Johnson County, the incomes are not quite as high as the average income in the Mission/Sunset Hills area but the high income area is much larger and the families are younger. https://www.city-data.com/income/income ... souri.html

For the Plaza area to compete with Johnson County for the higher end retail, KC would need to gentrify to the north and east. Adding a few residents in the Plaza proper is not going to prop up the area. There is some gentrification going on west and north of the Plaza and the immediate environs, particularly to the north, are getting much denser. So there is population being added that is at least middle to upper middle class in that area but KC still lags far behind Denver (which is why Cherry Creek is still so viable) and Houston (the Galleria) and many other cities when it comes to putting middle to upper class incomes into the urban core. To me, the woes of the Plaza just reflect the evolution of KC demographics going back to the 60's and 70's with a few outside factors (problems with retail) making their impact.

(note: the default color scheme on the map I provided is awful but you can change it using the "settings" button).
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Fountains »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:42 pm Main 3 properties the Plaza should develop

1. The Nordstrom property
2. The tennis courts
3. The Winsteads property

You do all that, you suddenly get very dense & even more foot traffic when you throw in Lane4's massive project too
The tower going at the intersection of Bellview and Roanoke will be a game changer for the area
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Fountains wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:28 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:42 pm Main 3 properties the Plaza should develop

1. The Nordstrom property
2. The tennis courts
3. The Winsteads property

You do all that, you suddenly get very dense & even more foot traffic when you throw in Lane4's massive project too
The tower going at the intersection of Bellview and Roanoke will be a game changer for the area
Yes, that's personally my fav one project on Plaza. Been meaning to check in for an update on that. I figured they're waiting for Lane4 to break ground perhaps.

I still think the biggest gamechanger for the Plaza is that massive streetcar station coming. I think it's gonna infuse a ton of extra foot traffic.
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