Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:04 pm DCole, is there some specific reason the Royals aren't considering the Jail Site? Seems like that's the one everyone can behind.
I’ve seen a very nice rendering of a ballpark on the jail site so it’s being discussed.

I’m not sure where the “EV is still royals favorite” is coming from but it could be only due to the additional development they could control. I just don’t like the idea of creating more commercial real estate for leasing when all of downtown is under leased right now.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCDowntown wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:53 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:42 pm it doesnt fit
I measured a bunch of stadiums last night on Google Maps and it could fit with the NE, E, or SE orientation. To get a northward orientation it would be cutting it real close or require decking over that part of the highway for pedestrians. Whole thing assumes jail & state building are removed and Interstate Building(s) removed or integrated with stadium. Long lines building would remain.

KCDowntown
Atlanta is the only comparable stadium. Stop trying to throw out comparisons or sizes of obsolete designs.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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What makes the ATL stadium so different. The way the fans enter the stadium via the outfield?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:57 pm
KCDowntown wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:53 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:42 pm it doesnt fit
I measured a bunch of stadiums last night on Google Maps and it could fit with the NE, E, or SE orientation. To get a northward orientation it would be cutting it real close or require decking over that part of the highway for pedestrians. Whole thing assumes jail & state building are removed and Interstate Building(s) removed or integrated with stadium. Long lines building would remain.

KCDowntown
Atlanta is the only comparable stadium. Stop trying to throw out comparisons or sizes of obsolete designs.
Then let's not move. I was unimpressed.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:57 pm
KCDowntown wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:53 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:42 pm it doesnt fit
I measured a bunch of stadiums last night on Google Maps and it could fit with the NE, E, or SE orientation. To get a northward orientation it would be cutting it real close or require decking over that part of the highway for pedestrians. Whole thing assumes jail & state building are removed and Interstate Building(s) removed or integrated with stadium. Long lines building would remain.

KCDowntown
Atlanta is the only comparable stadium. Stop trying to throw out comparisons or sizes of obsolete designs.

All those he used are absolutely good comparisons. Atlanta isn't even in a urban area making it a poor comp.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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shinatoo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:30 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:57 pm
KCDowntown wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:53 pm

I measured a bunch of stadiums last night on Google Maps and it could fit with the NE, E, or SE orientation. To get a northward orientation it would be cutting it real close or require decking over that part of the highway for pedestrians. Whole thing assumes jail & state building are removed and Interstate Building(s) removed or integrated with stadium. Long lines building would remain.

KCDowntown
Atlanta is the only comparable stadium. Stop trying to throw out comparisons or sizes of obsolete designs.
Then let's not move. I was unimpressed.
Yeah. Feels too much like Village West or something there and the stadium itself is boring, very "off the shelf" design and unmemorable and way to similar to about 12 other stadiums. If going downtown, there has to be a way to incorporate the stadium into KC better than it just being a part of a big canned development and the stadium itself needs to be unique to KC as well. That's why it needs to have the fountains but I have a feeling the budget won't allow for that with a new stadium, especially if it's mostly privately funded.

This is why I really like the 18th and Vine location a lot. You can really make "KC" part of the stadium there. Or any location in the crossroads where you can make the stadium feel like it's actually part of the neighborhood rather than trying to cram another "fake" district into downtown. P&L is fine, but really don't need another one and it would be really REALLY bad if they somehow cannibalized the P&L district with a new stadium district. That district would go to hell fast if it was not able to stay decently leased and that's the front door of downtown right now.

I just don't want to see KC go backwards with a new stadium just to get it downtown.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Also, the new ATL stadium is like 42,000 seats, so quite a bit bigger than what I'm guessing will be built in KC. I have a feeling KC's new stadium proposals will be something in the very low 30's if not right at 30k.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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If they do go to the Crossroads, stadium needs to be oriented slightly NW
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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GRID wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:42 pm
shinatoo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:30 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:57 pm
Atlanta is the only comparable stadium. Stop trying to throw out comparisons or sizes of obsolete designs.
Then let's not move. I was unimpressed.
Yeah. Feels too much like Village West or something there and the stadium itself is boring, very "off the shelf" design and unmemorable and way to similar to about 12 other stadiums. If going downtown, there has to be a way to incorporate the stadium into KC better than it just being a part of a big canned development and the stadium itself needs to be unique to KC as well. That's why it needs to have the fountains but I have a feeling the budget won't allow for that with a new stadium, especially if it's mostly privately funded.

This is why I really like the 18th and Vine location a lot. You can really make "KC" part of the stadium there. Or any location in the crossroads where you can make the stadium feel like it's actually part of the neighborhood rather than trying to cram another "fake" district into downtown. P&L is fine, but really don't need another one and it would be really REALLY bad if they somehow cannibalized the P&L district with a new stadium district. That district would go to hell fast if it was not able to stay decently leased and that's the front door of downtown right now.

I just don't want to see KC go backwards with a new stadium just to get it downtown.
Parts I liked for Truist were the pre function areas, "The Battery". But we won't get that with New Kauffman because it won't be next to PnL, and we aren't going to bastardize PnL by building that anywhere else downtown. But, "The Battery" could be easily duplicated at TSC.

As for the stadium itself. Pretty bland and I felt very distant from the field.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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You’re exactly right. If Atlanta is the model they love most they can do that at TSC. The Battery is great and I personally like it but it’s the polar opposite of why I’d like to see downtown. Like I said, EV lends itself to this type of zona rosa style development.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:57 pm Atlanta is the only comparable stadium. Stop trying to throw out comparisons or sizes of obsolete designs.
To fit the ATL stadium (730ft x 770ft) into the jail site it would have to be oriented to the north and would require some sort of decking over the highway (for a pedestrian plaza, not the actual stadium). Target Field is shoehorned into a 600ft by 750ft space which would absolutely fit in the jail site. A stadium here would be a tight fit, but I saw enough strange sizes on stadiums to feel like it's not something that couldn't be dealt with.

From East to West (Oak to Holmes) the jail site is approx 925ft, from North to South on Oak 13th to 14th terrace its approx 620ft (650ft if you build over 14th terrace). After the Long Lines building you get another 120 feet of North South space that diminishes as you head east.

Here's Petco Park, which is approx 730ft x 730 ft, overlayed onto the jail site. It fits pretty comfortably. The scale on google maps is not 100% exact for the KC and San Diego visuals, but I tried to get the scale as close to the same for each.

Can you explain why it the comparison has to be the ATL stadium (built in 2017)? Target Field is from 2010 and Petco is from 2004, why are they considered obsolete?

Image

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Last edited by KCDowntown on Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

Why is North Loop not getting more discussion? Is it just because Flashcube is in the way?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Stadium design has moved on from the 90s and 2000’s. You can only comp to the latest builds. No, AT&T isn’t going anywhere (easily).
Last edited by normalthings on Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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shinatoo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:16 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:42 pm
shinatoo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:30 pm

Then let's not move. I was unimpressed.
Yeah. Feels too much like Village West or something there and the stadium itself is boring, very "off the shelf" design and unmemorable and way to similar to about 12 other stadiums. If going downtown, there has to be a way to incorporate the stadium into KC better than it just being a part of a big canned development and the stadium itself needs to be unique to KC as well. That's why it needs to have the fountains but I have a feeling the budget won't allow for that with a new stadium, especially if it's mostly privately funded.

This is why I really like the 18th and Vine location a lot. You can really make "KC" part of the stadium there. Or any location in the crossroads where you can make the stadium feel like it's actually part of the neighborhood rather than trying to cram another "fake" district into downtown. P&L is fine, but really don't need another one and it would be really REALLY bad if they somehow cannibalized the P&L district with a new stadium district. That district would go to hell fast if it was not able to stay decently leased and that's the front door of downtown right now.

I just don't want to see KC go backwards with a new stadium just to get it downtown.
Parts I liked for Truist were the pre function areas, "The Battery". But we won't get that with New Kauffman because it won't be next to PnL, and we aren't going to bastardize PnL by building that anywhere else downtown. But, "The Battery" could be easily duplicated at TSC.

As for the stadium itself. Pretty bland and I felt very distant from the field.


Right. That's why the only real location inside the loop that makes sense is the jail site where the stadium basically becomes an extension of the P&L/TMobile district. You could also tie the stadium to the crossroads and to the 670 park from that location. Then when you free up some land in the East village for development, you could even have some tall buildings too look at AlkaliAxel!

It's either that or building on top of the north loop, tearing something down in the crossroads or put putting it in the Jazz District. EV is just a terrible idea.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:26 pm Stadium design has moved on from the 90s and 2000’s. You can only comp to the latest builds. No, AT&T isn’t going anywhere (easily).
There are only 3 MLB stadiums built more recently than Target Field.

Must all new stadiums have the dimensions of Globe Life Park (a weird rhombus of 720ft by 810ft not counting supports for the retracting roof), Truist Park (730 by 770) or Loan Depot Park - the Marlin's stadium (a 770 x 815 oval)? These are the 3 most recent stadiums built BTW.

I'm just trying to provide some visuals that support why the LongLines building can stay there and a stadium could fit. I don't think it would fit easily, but I do think it can be done.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:26 pm Stadium design has moved on from the 90s and 2000’s. You can only comp to the latest builds. No, AT&T isn’t going anywhere (easily).
Not accurate. We're simply figuring out blocking/spacing. Using stadiums built as far back a Detroit are still valid for that goal.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Here is the high points of where I find EV a better site (if jail doesn't work)
  • No teardowns of buildings. viable buildings that are currently being used and/or renovated for use.
  • Property in friendly hands already
  • Better access to established parking infrastructure
  • Easy walk from Cordish'ville (close to same distance as E. Crossroads and better experience vs. highways - cap helps this)
  • better access to highways (Go map The Pairing liquor store to points N/S/E/W of there to see what a cluster getting cars out of there will be)
  • Ability to extend / improve / add businesses along the common walking path from rest of downtown (be that 12th or 13th).
  • Equal access to streetcar and better access to other bus lines
  • Help bring points further east into "downtown" \
the biggest downside I see is what others have mentioned it being surrounded by gov't buildings. That's true and that's not changing. That said there is some space still there for a couple businesses to pop up around the stadium and still close enough to feed into the entertainment district we have invested in.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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I just think Crossroads would be exceptional because one of the very rare downtown stadiums that isn't hindered by a highway or giants surface lots on any side of it.

It's walkable and dense all the way around and through with great buildings. You couldn't create something like that in EV even if you tried. Most stadium sites like are like EV though, which is why the Xroads would put us in the next level- having real (not perceived like most) density right around the stadium.

Even in Denver they have density behind home plate- but behind the outfield is nothing. In Cleveland its nice behind the outfield- but behind home plate is nothing but highways. Etc. etc. We can be one of the rare few that has a completely dense stadium.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:12 pm I just think Crossroads would be exceptional because one of the very rare downtown stadiums that isn't hindered by a highway or giants surface lots on any side of it.

It's walkable and dense all the way around and through with great buildings. You couldn't create something like that in EV even if you tried. Most stadium sites like are like EV though, which is why the Xroads would put us in the next level- having real (not perceived like most) density right around the stadium.

Even in Denver they have density behind home plate- but behind the outfield is nothing. In Cleveland its nice behind the outfield- but behind home plate is nothing but highways. Etc. etc. We can be one of the rare few that has a completely dense stadium.
The Crossroads site has highways on two sides. Did I miss something.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

shinatoo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:26 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:12 pm I just think Crossroads would be exceptional because one of the very rare downtown stadiums that isn't hindered by a highway or giants surface lots on any side of it.

It's walkable and dense all the way around and through with great buildings. You couldn't create something like that in EV even if you tried. Most stadium sites like are like EV though, which is why the Xroads would put us in the next level- having real (not perceived like most) density right around the stadium.

Even in Denver they have density behind home plate- but behind the outfield is nothing. In Cleveland its nice behind the outfield- but behind home plate is nothing but highways. Etc. etc. We can be one of the rare few that has a completely dense stadium.
The Crossroads site has highways on two sides. Did I miss something.
One’s gonna be capped, and the other is not close enough at all to make an impact on that stadium.

When I say other stadiums have highways, I mean they are literally like right on the stadium almost. These won’t have that affect.
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