Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheLastGentleman »

If DColeKC is anywhere near a position to make decisions about anything downtown I am extremely concerned
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:54 pm If DColeKC is anywhere near a position to make decisions about anything downtown I am extremely concerned
Be concerned. This will be my 6th stadium project.

I don't have a say in the final location like you don't have the ability to not make this personal.

In my 15 years impacting decisions made downtown, I feel I've done a fine job but downtown politics are by far the most atrocious of them all. Don't like the ideas, attend the meetings and maybe I'll jot down your input like I do on here.
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grovester
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by grovester »

Those pictures that Critical Mass posted are exactly what we have hoped for downtown.

The thought that a stadium is going to succeed or fail based on a 5 minute walk is beyond ludicrous.
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

The rag in a nutshell!

Earthling - Hates the cordish glass wall.
TLG - Prefers older architecture and is opposed to demolishing most everything. Literally gets hives after reading anything I post. Thinks I'm a monster for downtown but probably has enjoyed several projects I've been apart of.
FANG - Intelligent person with solid input and is highly environmentally conscious. Obsessed with Timber Frame high-rise construction!
Normalthings - Very tuned into downtown permitting and another intelligent poster on here
AlkallAxel - Obsessed with removal of surface parking lots! Love your passion for downtown and that you're highly active on here.
KCP - Old head who loves to disagree with anything I say just to do so! Probably a person I'd love having a beer with.
KCDowntown - Smart input and so much better than me at laying out his arguments and never goes personal.
Mean - Is mean
DColeKC - KCRag villain who gets shit about his opinions despite being a downtown resident and tax payer like all the rest. Doesn't work for Cordish but people don't understand that. Tries to offer up as much info as possible without divulging private information. Takes valid opinions from members of this board to contacts for consideration. Thinks TLG is a prick.
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

grovester wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:05 pm Those pictures that Critical Mass posted are exactly what we have hoped for downtown.

The thought that a stadium is going to succeed or fail based on a 5 minute walk is beyond ludicrous.
Who's we?

EV would be a 15 minute walk to PNL, likely longer. 20+ to crossroads.
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grovester
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by grovester »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:18 pm
grovester wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:05 pm Those pictures that Critical Mass posted are exactly what we have hoped for downtown.

The thought that a stadium is going to succeed or fail based on a 5 minute walk is beyond ludicrous.
Who's we?

EV would be a 15 minute walk to PNL, likely longer. 20+ to crossroads.
Everyone but you.

5 minute longer walk to streetcar per KCDowntown.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pm
earthling wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:37 pm Given that the stadium architects are unfortunately inspired by the Atlanta stadium approach it would be double whammy sadness to see the character of these buildings replaced by sanitized manufactured culture and an isolated standalone stadium. Given chances are the results may suck, this needs to go into mostly existing open lots because at least it would be better than surface lots.
The Atlanta stadium and surrounding area is one of the better fan experiences in baseball. It was all new build too so it does lack some established character. This is what we will get with the EV location. The crossroads location doesn't allow for several blocks of filler space which would be generic commercial buildings leased by the Royals like the EV location.
I’m with you up to this point- this is where you lose me. I don’t want Wrigleyville or the Atlanta Battery. I want towers.
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:39 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pm
earthling wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:37 pm Given that the stadium architects are unfortunately inspired by the Atlanta stadium approach it would be double whammy sadness to see the character of these buildings replaced by sanitized manufactured culture and an isolated standalone stadium. Given chances are the results may suck, this needs to go into mostly existing open lots because at least it would be better than surface lots.
The Atlanta stadium and surrounding area is one of the better fan experiences in baseball. It was all new build too so it does lack some established character. This is what we will get with the EV location. The crossroads location doesn't allow for several blocks of filler space which would be generic commercial buildings leased by the Royals like the EV location.
I’m with you up to this point- this is where you lose me. I don’t want Wrigleyville or the Atlanta Battery. I want towers.
That's my point. EV location would be more likely to be a master development plan like The Battery. Crossroads location doesn't offer as much land and would require taller buildings to be built opposed to 2 story commercial style buildings.
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

grovester wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:33 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:18 pm
grovester wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:05 pm Those pictures that Critical Mass posted are exactly what we have hoped for downtown.

The thought that a stadium is going to succeed or fail based on a 5 minute walk is beyond ludicrous.
Who's we?

EV would be a 15 minute walk to PNL, likely longer. 20+ to crossroads.
Everyone but you.

5 minute longer walk to streetcar per KCDowntown.
Sounds good.
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat - Came across one of your old VHS tapes on youtube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHagTq_tJh0
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:45 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:39 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pm

The Atlanta stadium and surrounding area is one of the better fan experiences in baseball. It was all new build too so it does lack some established character. This is what we will get with the EV location. The crossroads location doesn't allow for several blocks of filler space which would be generic commercial buildings leased by the Royals like the EV location.
I’m with you up to this point- this is where you lose me. I don’t want Wrigleyville or the Atlanta Battery. I want towers.
That's my point. EV location would be more likely to be a master development plan like The Battery. Crossroads location doesn't offer as much land and would require taller buildings to be built opposed to 2 story commercial style buildings.
Oh, then I agree with your assessment then. I think in the end most people (even on Rag) will like the new stadium and not really think twice about the totally nude & friends buildings going away.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm The rag in a nutshell!

Earthling - Hates the cordish glass wall.
TLG - Prefers older architecture and is opposed to demolishing most everything. Literally gets hives after reading anything I post. Thinks I'm a monster for downtown but probably has enjoyed several projects I've been apart of.
FANG - Intelligent person with solid input and is highly environmentally conscious. Obsessed with Timber Frame high-rise construction!
Normalthings - Very tuned into downtown permitting and another intelligent poster on here
AlkallAxel - Obsessed with removal of surface parking lots! Love your passion for downtown and that you're highly active on here.
KCP - Old head who loves to disagree with anything I say just to do so! Probably a person I'd love having a beer with.
KCDowntown - Smart input and so much better than me at laying out his arguments and never goes personal.
Mean - Is mean
DColeKC - KCRag villain who gets shit about his opinions despite being a downtown resident and tax payer like all the rest. Doesn't work for Cordish but people don't understand that. Tries to offer up as much info as possible without divulging private information. Takes valid opinions from members of this board to contacts for consideration. Thinks TLG is a prick.
Wow, not even a mentions of me :cry:
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FangKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by FangKC »

Maybe we are just concerned for the City in which we live and have learned from mistakes made about urban renewal schemes of the past.

Take a look here. This intersection of functional buildings that are over a century-old exists because they didn't fall into the hands of the Kemper family for a development scheme.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1046773 ... 312!8i6656

Take a spin around this intersection below. These blocks fell into the hands of the Kemper family in the 1950s for a development scheme of urban renewal. They demolished buildings of the same vintage as those to the west. Nothing has existed on these blocks for over 60 years but parking. The head of the Kemper bank then touted rebirth and new development. He controlled a banking fortune. Still, nothing happened on these parcels.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1045159 ... 312!8i6656

Everyone should be environmentally conscious. I'm nearing the end of my lifespan. I won't be here for the worst effects of climate change if society doesn't get in gear and heed the obvious warnings and make a significant change. If society doesn't, it will be too hot to sit outside in the summer in Kansas City to watch a baseball game. The Royals better build an air-conditioned stadium like they have in Phoenix.
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GRID
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

KCDowntown wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:16 am
KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 pm I fail to see how this crossroads site is superior to EV. It's equal to worse to me.
I think the Crossroads site is vastly superior to the East Village.

For the sake of argument, let's say there are two possible Crossroads plans (both mentioned in the latest Business Journal article)
  • Plan 1 - Builds the stadium on 4 square blocks from Truman & Grand to 17th & Oak, requiring the demolition of 17 buildings including the great stretch of buildings on the East side of Grand & the former KCStar Printing Press)
  • Plan 2 - Reimagines the Printing Press building with a mix of uses "equivalent to Wrigleyville" and places the stadium on the 4 blocks due east from Truman and Oak to 17th & Cherry (and demolishes 35 buildings in the process)
Both of these plans require a lot of demolition of functional buildings which sucks, but I'd still chose this over the East Village. And I say this as someone who absolutely loves it when an old building comes back to life in our downtown. Just to name a few - I'm still pissed about the Law Building, the Lathrop Building, the Gloyd Building, the Italian Gardens building, Grand Opera House, etc... Frankly, the buildings we've lost in the last couple of decades is too sad to even think about. Yet, I'd still choose to do this, and here is why:

1. Connectivity to Amenities & infrastructure
The closer we get to the streetcar & P&L the better. Ever been to Cosentino's at lunch when there is a big convention in town? The place is ridiculously packed and that's great. That's our city's amenities benefitting each other - the conventioneer has a finer experience in KC because they can get a better meal than whatever cold cut they're handing out at Bartle, and Cosentino's makes some money at the same time. Everyone wins because the amenities are two blocks away. There isn't a single city amenity anywhere near the East Village, it's a 6-block walk from the East Village to any other existing amenity downtown. Sure, they can build something nearby when they build the stadium, but it will be insular and generally empty the 75% of days that baseball isn't on. That's one of the main complaints I hear on here a downtown stadium (it's empty 75% of the time - so all the more reason to put it off on its own. I think the exact opposite - it's all the more reason to get it close to existing amenities because any stadium-centric development can't support itself 365 days a year)

Also, I hate above-ground parking garages with the heat of a thousand suns, and if we want to limit the need for massive parking structures concomitant with this stadium, then the closer we can get to the streetcar and existing parking structures the better. Look at Busch Stadium - 8 of the 12 blocks surrounding it are parking structures or surface parking (even with a light rail stop). TSC has 19,000 parking spaces (sized for Arrowhead-sized crowds). We have 4,000+ parking spaces just in the P&L. If we don't want some more blocks turned into parking structures, then the closer we can get to the core of the city (with its unfortunate abundance of parking) the better.

Plus, as mentioned before this site is a 4 minute walk from Kauffman Center streetcar to 17th & McGee surrounded by active city blocks vs. a 9 minute walk from City Center stop surrounded by a couple of active blocks, then a couple of desolate government zone blocks (night games only - day games is different).

2. Spinoff development possibilities
Put the stadium in the Crossroads and you have a blank canvas of smaller lot sizes to the west, south, and east. Put it in the EV we are likely seeing superblock style developments north along Holmes and Charlotte.

There is a great stock of buildings in the Crossroads with established business and residential buildings. Any new development surrounding the stadium in the Crossroads will be more likely to have to incorporate itself into the city leading to smaller buildings that are better integrated with the city. This is not the case in the EV. New development is blocked to the west by JE Dunn HQ and the municipal buildings. To the south is the Bolling Federal Building and a whole-block parking lot owned by Uncle Sam. To the East is a half block of buildings and then the highway loop. North is the only way to go, and there aren't many existing buildings / established businesses that will limit developers from their tiny little inner demon telling them to build a superblock building that looks great on TV but works like hell for the pedestrian.

I think the NE Crossroads with its plethora of owners will lend itself to better future development than a couple of empty blocks north of the East Village.

3. Familiarity for locals attending games
I hate to break it you - but us KCRag people are not normal. Normal people know Grand Blvd, but they don't know Cherry and Holmes. Whether us city dorks like it or not, quite a bit of the general public is going to be pissed that the stadium has moved downtown. They are comfortable with the TSC. They are not nearly as comfortable when they travel downtown. I think it is fair to say though that most of these people do know something about downtown - they know the Sprint Center, they know Crown Center, and they will come to know the new stadium regardless of where it ends up. Normal people know the streetcar and they know Grand Blvd (site of the numerous parades we've been fortunate enough to celebrate). If the stadium was somewhere they were familiar with (say a block off of Grand) as opposed to 10th & Locust, I think they'd be more willing to buy in. Additionally, we want the location of the stadium to make people feel safe, and to people not comfortable with the city there is safety in numbers. East Village is isolated from the amenities downtown and isolated is dangerous. The closer the stadium is to active uses, the safer people attending games will feel.

4. Showcasing the City
While the P&L has its pluses and minuses, I don't think for a minute we'd have the 2026 World Cup coming here without it. The images of Kansas Citians celebrating US soccer moments in the 'living room' block are literally priceless. They make KC look like a major league city to everyone across the country and globe. Same for the images of the parades for the Royals and Chiefs. You cannot buy that publicity. With this stadium we aren't just trying to impress ourselves - millions of people every year across the country (and Canada) will see it on their TV's when their teams roll into KC to get spanked our veteran lineup of Bobby Witt Jr., MJ Melendez, Vinnie and Nate Eaton. If the whole of the KC skyline is sitting behind centerfield wouldn't that look more big league to than the East Village Apts, the Manhattan & the Metropolitan. Wouldn't the street-level shots after the commercials looking up Grand towards the T-Mobile center or south to Crown Center look better than a shot of a dark government district. This is a chance to sell ourselves to every eyeball watching MLB baseball and we should take advantage of it.

This post took far too long to write. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. This is just my opinion, and I can easily see why some people will disagree. I just want to put out there why I'm okay with doing some collateral damage when placing the stadium. Wherever the stadium ends up downtown I think it will be for the benefit of the city.

KCDowntown
Nailed it.

I really just do not understand the appeal of the "east village" site one bit. Other than it would replace parking lots, it's just a terrible spot for a stadium.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCDowntownLoop »

One of the buildings in the crosshairs of the Crossroads stadium concept is supposedly the oldest standing firehouse in KC: Firehouse No. 8. It's an airBnB now, but still a structure worth considering.

Image
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

KCDowntownLoop wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:15 am One of the buildings in the crosshairs of the Crossroads stadium concept is supposedly the oldest standing firehouse in KC: Firehouse No. 8. It's an airBnB now, but still a structure worth considering.

Image
Good catch. This is the historical aspect I think needs heavy consideration.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

These blocks have dozens of these buildings "worth considering"
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GRID
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

KCPowercat wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 am These blocks have dozens of these buildings "worth considering"
I get that. But I just think the east village. God I hate that name lol. I just think the east village is a terrible site for a stadium. Honestly, I would rebuild at the sports complex and concentrate on building light rail before I would choose EV.

I really think everybody would be terribly disappointed with a stadium there once it's built. It will be nothing like what people envisioned and what the people that are against a downtown ballpark are being sold. It will backfire badly.

Too many government buildings in the area that will always be secured and dead space.

The east loop really needs to be totally rebuilt so that it can be at least partially covered and we all know that will not happen at least for decades.

The stadium would have stupid views of nothing.

The location is just a very odd and awkward spot to take advantage of more available parking in the greater downtown area such as crossroads and crown center.

It would rely nearly totally on canned planned development with little interaction with the true historic and more organic development that is all over the rest of downtown KC. A stadium there WILL NOT generate a lot of new development. Stadiums just do not do that on their own like that and Downtown already has a canned entertainment district. Look at at Sprint and the performing arts center. They are surrounded by what is basically the least active development in the downtown area. A city backed apartment tower or two might go up near the stadium over a span of 10-15 years if the city is interested in subsidizing such a structure. If not, pretty much nothing on that scale would happen.

The stadium needs to be more in the Crossroads area somewhere. That is now the "heart" of downtown and and the center of the greater Downtown area which is from the river market to crown center.

Tell me one good reason to put the stadium at EV other than the city has a bunch of parking lots there. A stadium would likely not help that area much at all. It's just too isolated and chopped off from the rest of downtown in many ways. The east side of downtown would be much better off if the city stopped land banking it and let it develop into a residential district.

If you can't find a better place for a stadium, then leave it where it is. I'm telling you. I think everybody has their hopes up way too high for this EV site.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TrolliKC »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm The rag in a nutshell!

Earthling - Hates the cordish glass wall.
TLG - Prefers older architecture and is opposed to demolishing most everything. Literally gets hives after reading anything I post. Thinks I'm a monster for downtown but probably has enjoyed several projects I've been apart of.
FANG - Intelligent person with solid input and is highly environmentally conscious. Obsessed with Timber Frame high-rise construction!
Normalthings - Very tuned into downtown permitting and another intelligent poster on here
AlkallAxel - Obsessed with removal of surface parking lots! Love your passion for downtown and that you're highly active on here.
KCP - Old head who loves to disagree with anything I say just to do so! Probably a person I'd love having a beer with.
KCDowntown - Smart input and so much better than me at laying out his arguments and never goes personal.
Mean - Is mean
DColeKC - KCRag villain who gets shit about his opinions despite being a downtown resident and tax payer like all the rest. Doesn't work for Cordish but people don't understand that. Tries to offer up as much info as possible without divulging private information. Takes valid opinions from members of this board to contacts for consideration. Thinks TLG is a prick.
Love it, Kcrag is to me what the next door app must be to suburban housewives. Awesome
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by horizons82 »

The Jail site is the ideal compromise location.

Landownership: There are far fewer landowners than Xroads sites. The majority of the jail site is held by the county or state which could relocate to the EV. The Jail is already leaving with no declared replacement.

Neighborhood resistance: No neighborhood exists around the Jail. There's a minimal number of historical structures on the site. Gentrification accusations are less than they would be at 18th & Vine or even potentially EV. There will likely be resistance to putting garages over 670, but I see that happening whichever site you go with.

Cohesion with P&L: Far easier to connect than EV. A PPP could be done between Royals ownership (or Cordish or another entity) and the county to redevelop the Jackson Co. Courthouse garage into something worthwhile. Cordish could also develop the eastern Sprint Center credential lot into an activated space. Perhaps a Biergarten-type space that can be "flipped" or divided to be accessible from SC during events and the street during Royals games or non-SC event days. This also heats up demand for the the 12& Grand/BOE sites.

Views: While not as strong as a possible Xroads location, the jail site could afford a memorable window looking NW at the core of DT. This is a strong runner up in the views department to Xroads.

Organic Spinoff: By using the jail site, the Xroads is spared and supercharged to grow its East side.
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