Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Also if they did choose Crossroads, we'd need to fill out 100% of the highway cap.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:22 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:02 pm We should motivate land bankers to do something with the surface lots, not force a massive once in a lifetime project like a new stadium to go somewhere inferior because creeps have sat on these lots forever and a day.
Like how P&L was landbanked? Seems a bit "cut your nose off to spite your face". Sure, I hate landbanking, but if we can eliminate a very large amount of it in one project, that's what we should do instead of tearing down functional buildings in use.
I'm not sure you can call owning large swaths of land in downtown KC circa 1990-2005 land banking as there wasn't nearly the amount of interest there is now. Only development for decades was income restricted building flips.

If you can eliminate a large amount in one project and it's the best location to ensure the future success of said project, you've got a homerun. My point is more about forcing locations in an effort to get rid of these lots. The EV location is great, but it has faults and #1 is how disconnected it is from existing development. Betting on a stadium to fire off more development is a bad plan.

I can't think of a much better situation where a new stadium is located in one established entertainment district and within a 5 minute walk to another. If we want to induce demand for Royals tickets and make going to a Royals game on the weekends a fantastic fan experience, it doesn't get much better than that. If we want to boost Royals weekday games attendance, a location smack dab in the middle of multiple established residential areas and close proximity to so many hotels is imperative.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:35 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:22 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:02 pm We should motivate land bankers to do something with the surface lots, not force a massive once in a lifetime project like a new stadium to go somewhere inferior because creeps have sat on these lots forever and a day.
Like how P&L was landbanked? Seems a bit "cut your nose off to spite your face". Sure, I hate landbanking, but if we can eliminate a very large amount of it in one project, that's what we should do instead of tearing down functional buildings in use.
I'm not sure you can call owning large swaths of land in downtown KC circa 1990-2005 land banking as there wasn't nearly the amount of interest there is now. Only development for decades was income restricted building flips.

If you can eliminate a large amount in one project and it's the best location to ensure the future success of said project, you've got a homerun. My point is more about forcing locations in an effort to get rid of these lots. The EV location is great, but it has faults and #1 is how disconnected it is from existing development. Betting on a stadium to fire off more development is a bad plan.

I can't think of a much better situation where a new stadium is located in one established entertainment district and within a 5 minute walk to another. If we want to induce demand for Royals tickets and make going to a Royals game on the weekends a fantastic fan experience, it doesn't get much better than that. If we want to boost Royals weekday games attendance, a location smack dab in the middle of multiple established residential areas and close proximity to so many hotels is imperative.
But are they going to demand that the surface lots in the Crossroads remain? Or can we still get them developed. That's a problem.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:38 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:35 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:22 pm
Like how P&L was landbanked? Seems a bit "cut your nose off to spite your face". Sure, I hate landbanking, but if we can eliminate a very large amount of it in one project, that's what we should do instead of tearing down functional buildings in use.
I'm not sure you can call owning large swaths of land in downtown KC circa 1990-2005 land banking as there wasn't nearly the amount of interest there is now. Only development for decades was income restricted building flips.

If you can eliminate a large amount in one project and it's the best location to ensure the future success of said project, you've got a homerun. My point is more about forcing locations in an effort to get rid of these lots. The EV location is great, but it has faults and #1 is how disconnected it is from existing development. Betting on a stadium to fire off more development is a bad plan.

I can't think of a much better situation where a new stadium is located in one established entertainment district and within a 5 minute walk to another. If we want to induce demand for Royals tickets and make going to a Royals game on the weekends a fantastic fan experience, it doesn't get much better than that. If we want to boost Royals weekday games attendance, a location smack dab in the middle of multiple established residential areas and close proximity to so many hotels is imperative.
But are they going to demand that the surface lots in the Crossroads remain? Or can we still get them developed. That's a problem.
I've said this before but I look at this a bit differently than some other stadium builds across the country where they were banking on the idea that it would spur new development. We are in the opposite situation in KC. All the development over the last 15+ years has spurred the desire for downtown baseball. So a new stadium should go in decent proximity to existing developments. That ensures it will add to what's already been built while also continuing to increase demand downtown for more housing.

If the crossroads location is selected, it would look out to our current skyline including 3-6 residential towers built in the last decade.

As for parking, I'd hope any new parking would be garage style which can at least be more attractively built than hideous surface lots.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:54 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 pm What would motivate a developer to change the exterior of the AT&T building. This is a mission-critical piece of infra for our region.
Money - I don't truly understand the functional purpose of the LL building but I'd have to assume that with a slight change in tech over the last 50 years a near windowless 300' building is no longer needed to house mission-critical infrastructure. The need for roof mounted antennas are also no longer required so you'd think a mission critical telecommunications facility that likely houses several server farms would be better placed underground. I mean at this point, we are sinking server farms in the ocean, not placing them in nearly windowless brutalist style high rise buildings.
It’s not servers holding data in the cloud. It’s where physical lines come in and interconnect
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Yeah that building is critical and. It going anywhere.

I just walked these sites this evening just randomly. Even more convinced the Star site is not the best site.. there are a lot more viable buildings than I was even remembering
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:07 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:54 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 pm What would motivate a developer to change the exterior of the AT&T building. This is a mission-critical piece of infra for our region.
Money - I don't truly understand the functional purpose of the LL building but I'd have to assume that with a slight change in tech over the last 50 years a near windowless 300' building is no longer needed to house mission-critical infrastructure. The need for roof mounted antennas are also no longer required so you'd think a mission critical telecommunications facility that likely houses several server farms would be better placed underground. I mean at this point, we are sinking server farms in the ocean, not placing them in nearly windowless brutalist style high rise buildings.
It’s not servers holding data in the cloud. It’s where physical lines come in and interconnect

Limited knowledge on the building but I don't think that's the case. From reading about the building and tech, Long lines system refers to an older technology that actually was meant to eliminate the need for long physical lines needing to be ran. They were mission critical as you say during the cold war when military and TV broadcast used the technology. The technology has been abandoned since 1990 when fiber and satellites made it obsolete.

So as space freed up in the facility I'm sure they started leasing space to other companies to house telecom and data equipment since the building is perfect for this. Just like the same type of building does in NYC, including the NSA.

Knowing this, I'm even more confident whatever equipment remains in the building could easily be relocated and I'm sure AT&T knows exactly what that would cost. They've done it before in other cities.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:31 pm Yeah that building is critical and. It going anywhere.

I just walked these sites this evening just randomly. Even more convinced the Star site is not the best site.. there are a lot more viable buildings than I was even remembering
Not saying it would be demolished but purchased by a developer.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:45 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:07 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:54 pm

Money - I don't truly understand the functional purpose of the LL building but I'd have to assume that with a slight change in tech over the last 50 years a near windowless 300' building is no longer needed to house mission-critical infrastructure. The need for roof mounted antennas are also no longer required so you'd think a mission critical telecommunications facility that likely houses several server farms would be better placed underground. I mean at this point, we are sinking server farms in the ocean, not placing them in nearly windowless brutalist style high rise buildings.
It’s not servers holding data in the cloud. It’s where physical lines come in and interconnect

Limited knowledge on the building but I don't think that's the case. From reading about the building and tech, Long lines system refers to an older technology that actually was meant to eliminate the need for long physical lines needing to be ran. They were mission critical as you say during the cold war when military and TV broadcast used the technology. The technology has been abandoned since 1990 when fiber and satellites made it obsolete.

So as space freed up in the facility I'm sure they started leasing space to other companies to house telecom and data equipment since the building is perfect for this. Just like the same type of building does in NYC, including the NSA.

Knowing this, I'm even more confident whatever equipment remains in the building could easily be relocated and I'm sure AT&T knows exactly what that would cost. They've done it before in other cities.
The LL function was basically just the rooftop array.. which has been long gone. I doubt you even remember it at this point. Normalthings is correct.. that building has more to do with being the central tying point for everything coming into and out of the midwest. It's about connections. Not server space.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:50 pm I've said this before but I look at this a bit differently than some other stadium builds across the country where they were banking on the idea that it would spur new development. We are in the opposite situation in KC. All the development over the last 15+ years has spurred the desire for downtown baseball. So a new stadium should go in decent proximity to existing developments. That ensures it will add to what's already been built while also continuing to increase demand downtown for more housing.

If the crossroads location is selected, it would look out to our current skyline including 3-6 residential towers built in the last decade.

As for parking, I'd hope any new parking would be garage style which can at least be more attractively built than hideous surface lots.
But if you're saying we won't hardly get any spinoff development from it- then what's the point?

The silver lining of cramming stadium into the Crossroads is so that all those surface lots in the Crossroads would get developed, and quickly. If that's not gonna happen then what's the point..
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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im2kull wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:13 am
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:45 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:07 pm

It’s not servers holding data in the cloud. It’s where physical lines come in and interconnect

Limited knowledge on the building but I don't think that's the case. From reading about the building and tech, Long lines system refers to an older technology that actually was meant to eliminate the need for long physical lines needing to be ran. They were mission critical as you say during the cold war when military and TV broadcast used the technology. The technology has been abandoned since 1990 when fiber and satellites made it obsolete.

So as space freed up in the facility I'm sure they started leasing space to other companies to house telecom and data equipment since the building is perfect for this. Just like the same type of building does in NYC, including the NSA.

Knowing this, I'm even more confident whatever equipment remains in the building could easily be relocated and I'm sure AT&T knows exactly what that would cost. They've done it before in other cities.
The LL function was basically just the rooftop array.. which has been long gone. I doubt you even remember it at this point. Normalthings is correct.. that building has more to do with being the central tying point for everything coming into and out of the midwest. It's about connections. Not server space.
Wish I could find more info on it, sounds like something I'd find interesting.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 pm I fail to see how this crossroads site is superior to EV. It's equal to worse to me.
I think the Crossroads site is vastly superior to the East Village.

For the sake of argument, let's say there are two possible Crossroads plans (both mentioned in the latest Business Journal article)
  • Plan 1 - Builds the stadium on 4 square blocks from Truman & Grand to 17th & Oak, requiring the demolition of 17 buildings including the great stretch of buildings on the East side of Grand & the former KCStar Printing Press)
  • Plan 2 - Reimagines the Printing Press building with a mix of uses "equivalent to Wrigleyville" and places the stadium on the 4 blocks due east from Truman and Oak to 17th & Cherry (and demolishes 35 buildings in the process)
Both of these plans require a lot of demolition of functional buildings which sucks, but I'd still chose this over the East Village. And I say this as someone who absolutely loves it when an old building comes back to life in our downtown. Just to name a few - I'm still pissed about the Law Building, the Lathrop Building, the Gloyd Building, the Italian Gardens building, Grand Opera House, etc... Frankly, the buildings we've lost in the last couple of decades is too sad to even think about. Yet, I'd still choose to do this, and here is why:

1. Connectivity to Amenities & infrastructure
The closer we get to the streetcar & P&L the better. Ever been to Cosentino's at lunch when there is a big convention in town? The place is ridiculously packed and that's great. That's our city's amenities benefitting each other - the conventioneer has a finer experience in KC because they can get a better meal than whatever cold cut they're handing out at Bartle, and Cosentino's makes some money at the same time. Everyone wins because the amenities are two blocks away. There isn't a single city amenity anywhere near the East Village, it's a 6-block walk from the East Village to any other existing amenity downtown. Sure, they can build something nearby when they build the stadium, but it will be insular and generally empty the 75% of days that baseball isn't on. That's one of the main complaints I hear on here a downtown stadium (it's empty 75% of the time - so all the more reason to put it off on its own. I think the exact opposite - it's all the more reason to get it close to existing amenities because any stadium-centric development can't support itself 365 days a year)

Also, I hate above-ground parking garages with the heat of a thousand suns, and if we want to limit the need for massive parking structures concomitant with this stadium, then the closer we can get to the streetcar and existing parking structures the better. Look at Busch Stadium - 8 of the 12 blocks surrounding it are parking structures or surface parking (even with a light rail stop). TSC has 19,000 parking spaces (sized for Arrowhead-sized crowds). We have 4,000+ parking spaces just in the P&L. If we don't want some more blocks turned into parking structures, then the closer we can get to the core of the city (with its unfortunate abundance of parking) the better.

Plus, as mentioned before this site is a 4 minute walk from Kauffman Center streetcar to 17th & McGee surrounded by active city blocks vs. a 9 minute walk from City Center stop surrounded by a couple of active blocks, then a couple of desolate government zone blocks (night games only - day games is different).

2. Spinoff development possibilities
Put the stadium in the Crossroads and you have a blank canvas of smaller lot sizes to the west, south, and east. Put it in the EV we are likely seeing superblock style developments north along Holmes and Charlotte.

There is a great stock of buildings in the Crossroads with established business and residential buildings. Any new development surrounding the stadium in the Crossroads will be more likely to have to incorporate itself into the city leading to smaller buildings that are better integrated with the city. This is not the case in the EV. New development is blocked to the west by JE Dunn HQ and the municipal buildings. To the south is the Bolling Federal Building and a whole-block parking lot owned by Uncle Sam. To the East is a half block of buildings and then the highway loop. North is the only way to go, and there aren't many existing buildings / established businesses that will limit developers from their tiny little inner demon telling them to build a superblock building that looks great on TV but works like hell for the pedestrian.

I think the NE Crossroads with its plethora of owners will lend itself to better future development than a couple of empty blocks north of the East Village.

3. Familiarity for locals attending games
I hate to break it you - but us KCRag people are not normal. Normal people know Grand Blvd, but they don't know Cherry and Holmes. Whether us city dorks like it or not, quite a bit of the general public is going to be pissed that the stadium has moved downtown. They are comfortable with the TSC. They are not nearly as comfortable when they travel downtown. I think it is fair to say though that most of these people do know something about downtown - they know the Sprint Center, they know Crown Center, and they will come to know the new stadium regardless of where it ends up. Normal people know the streetcar and they know Grand Blvd (site of the numerous parades we've been fortunate enough to celebrate). If the stadium was somewhere they were familiar with (say a block off of Grand) as opposed to 10th & Locust, I think they'd be more willing to buy in. Additionally, we want the location of the stadium to make people feel safe, and to people not comfortable with the city there is safety in numbers. East Village is isolated from the amenities downtown and isolated is dangerous. The closer the stadium is to active uses, the safer people attending games will feel.

4. Showcasing the City
While the P&L has its pluses and minuses, I don't think for a minute we'd have the 2026 World Cup coming here without it. The images of Kansas Citians celebrating US soccer moments in the 'living room' block are literally priceless. They make KC look like a major league city to everyone across the country and globe. Same for the images of the parades for the Royals and Chiefs. You cannot buy that publicity. With this stadium we aren't just trying to impress ourselves - millions of people every year across the country (and Canada) will see it on their TV's when their teams roll into KC to get spanked our veteran lineup of Bobby Witt Jr., MJ Melendez, Vinnie and Nate Eaton. If the whole of the KC skyline is sitting behind centerfield wouldn't that look more big league to than the East Village Apts, the Manhattan & the Metropolitan. Wouldn't the street-level shots after the commercials looking up Grand towards the T-Mobile center or south to Crown Center look better than a shot of a dark government district. This is a chance to sell ourselves to every eyeball watching MLB baseball and we should take advantage of it.

This post took far too long to write. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. This is just my opinion, and I can easily see why some people will disagree. I just want to put out there why I'm okay with doing some collateral damage when placing the stadium. Wherever the stadium ends up downtown I think it will be for the benefit of the city.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:39 pm
Critical_Mass wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:39 am
If there are those who think it's acceptable to demolish the downtown fabric to locate a ballpark with a 20 to 30 year shelf life, can I suggest a vast swath of architecturally insignificant empty retail spaces along 14th between Main and Grand? Great spot for a stadium.
Backhanded, neat. Something like 11 of 14 spaces along that section are leased. But this was just a dig so moving on.

What downtown fabric? You think Abbott has been buying up properties just to continue to flip them into event spaces? He’s no dummy and his existing event spaces would stand to see a massive benefit from a stadium.

And this is a 35-50 year stadium build.
You've already stated that any current buildings are expendable. None of the buildings between Main and Grand in P&L are historic or architecturally significant. H&R Block probably wants to downsize now anyway. Cordish has already demonstrated their buildings were built to have a short shelf-life since they are already considering demolition of the empty retail building on the NW corner of 14th and Main. Current businesses don't really matter anyway.

Yep. It's okay to tear down others' buildings just as long as they aren't the real estate you are promoting.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

With a Crossroads stadium, if they are able to build a couple towers beyond the Royals left field (against Truman, towards the cap) it could actually create a real Wall on the south side of the south loop cap if you include these other future towers: viewtopic.php?t=21157

That's atleast 4 towers on the south side of the cap. It could create a serious canyon in the future.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Definitely respect your opinion kcdowntown. Will have to read that post more in depth.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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And there is this that nobody seemed to ask the neighborhood. Good indication this site isn't viable

https://twitter.com/kclightrail/status/ ... tmWBg&s=19
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:27 am Definitely respect your opinion kcdowntown. Will have to read that post more in depth.
Likewise - Sorry I wrote a freaking novel last night; nobody has time for that nowadays.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

KCDowntown wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:02 am
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:27 am Definitely respect your opinion kcdowntown. Will have to read that post more in depth.
Likewise - Sorry I wrote a freaking novel last night; nobody has time for that nowadays.

KCDowntown
I enjoyed it. I like hearing the full depth of opinions on an issue as big as this stadium site is going to be.

You did persuade me some. I think the biggest selling point is that it would get all these surface lots in the Crossroads filled.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

FangKC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:19 am
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:39 pm
Critical_Mass wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:39 am
If there are those who think it's acceptable to demolish the downtown fabric to locate a ballpark with a 20 to 30 year shelf life, can I suggest a vast swath of architecturally insignificant empty retail spaces along 14th between Main and Grand? Great spot for a stadium.
Backhanded, neat. Something like 11 of 14 spaces along that section are leased. But this was just a dig so moving on.

What downtown fabric? You think Abbott has been buying up properties just to continue to flip them into event spaces? He’s no dummy and his existing event spaces would stand to see a massive benefit from a stadium.

And this is a 35-50 year stadium build.
You've already stated that any current buildings are expendable. None of the buildings between Main and Grand in P&L are historic or architecturally significant. H&R Block probably wants to downsize now anyway. Cordish has already demonstrated their buildings were built to have a short shelf-life since they are already considering demolition of the empty retail building on the NW corner of 14th and Main. Current businesses don't really matter anyway.

Yep. It's okay to tear down others' buildings just as long as they aren't the real estate you are promoting.
Listen I know environmental concerns are a big issue for you, so I get it.

I’m not promoting anything and not sure how I can say this anymore clearly without doxing myself and making some of you feel embarrassed. Not even going to address the comments because it’s not helpful to the conversation of where this stadium is going to end up.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:47 am And there is this that nobody seemed to ask the neighborhood. Good indication this site isn't viable

https://twitter.com/kclightrail/status/ ... tmWBg&s=19
Why would you ask a bunch of business owners what they think when you’re needing to buy up the property? These things usually happen quietly and if the Crossroads leaders don’t want a stadium in Crossroads, they need to talk to the business owners who I’ve seen get very excited about this possibility.

This site is viable and the favorite location of some powerful city leaders. They won’t admit this publicly because they’re smart.
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