New Chiefs Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
Noahfleshman
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:15 am

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by Noahfleshman »

I understand your point, but sports in this city are like the pig we keep putting make up on, I think it’s sad how these leagues can pay player $1 billion, yet they can’t foot 50 million for their own renovations despite the fact they have beer endorsements, sports endorsements who knows what, it’s a shame sports betting didn’t get legalized in Missouri.
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 2243
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:25 am
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:59 pm
Noahfleshman wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:23 pm This city thinks it’s progressive but we just keep pouring money into big sports when we can’t even maintain parks at a city level.
But we haven't.

In fact, last almost 20 years we've done everything but sports. We got a pretty big transit line, a new airport, subsidized tons of new development...but yet the biggest thing we're struggling is actually investing properly in our sporting assets.
A. The tax payer stadium renovation investment surpasses that if the airport or streetcar.
B. Many would argue the proper level is none
I’d make the argument that our pro sports teams are more important to this city than any public transit. Thankfully we don’t have to pick one or the other.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15995
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by GRID »

Noahfleshman wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:28 pm Jesus Christ, now I remember why I left Facebook. People in Kansas City are stuck in time.
Not sure if you are referring to my post. Trust me, I am for transit, just not commuter rail. Commuter rail is a total waste of money for the most part and only encourages sprawl. For the cost, the amount of people that would use it and the demographics of the people that would use it, it's just not worth the time and money unless it's just a complimenting portion of a much larger more comprehensive transit system. Which KC of course does not have.

Building a LRT system that also serves as a commuter rail is the way to go. Yes it cost a lot more, but you get way more back in return.

I generally agree with you on the idea that sports stadiums should not be funded like public infrastructure, but it's one of those things that cities are forced to do. But that's all the more reason to keep Arrowhead where it is so all new parking and roadway infrastructure etc is not needed and to redirect that effort to building a quality transit system.

And running little trams in mixed traffic to Arrowhead is a worse idea than commuter rail. KCMO's urban streetcar system is awesome and would compliment a LRT line to the east (and another to JoCo.) but would be totally pointless to extend to the Arrowhead. Streetcar expansions should be in the central urban core where that type of transit works.

Jackson County desperately needs infrastructure investment as does the east side of KCMO. I really do think that KCMO and Jackson County voters would easily pass a tax to build a true mass transit line between the city and the Jackson County suburbs that served the stadium (both a downtown stadium and whatever happens with Arrowhead). The amount of potential redevelopment along such a line would be astronomical and bring much of Jackson County and east KCMO back to life. It just takes leadership and KC still lacks that kind of leadership.
Last edited by GRID on Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 2243
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

Noahfleshman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:30 am I understand your point, but sports in this city are like the pig we keep putting make up on, I think it’s sad how these leagues can pay player $1 billion, yet they can’t foot 50 million for their own renovations despite the fact they have beer endorsements, sports endorsements who knows what, it’s a shame sports betting didn’t get legalized in Missouri.
Nature of the beast. There are a dozen cities who would sell their first born to acquire a NFL team. That gives owners all the leverage. You want us, pay up.

Teams/owners typically do invest millions as well.
Noahfleshman
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:15 am

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by Noahfleshman »

All things are possible through our Lord and Savior Patrick Mahomes
User avatar
normalthings
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7451
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by normalthings »

Interestingly it seems like everyone here is proposing light rail and you keep reading streetcar.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15995
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:34 am Interestingly it seems like everyone here is proposing light rail and you keep reading streetcar.
Maybe on this forum. But all I ever hear or read about is streetcars and commuter rail as potential options from KC area planners etc. Seems like LRT is not even remotely in the cards anymore for KC. That's fine, but KC should stop talking about transit to the stadiums, airport etc then and just concentrate on the River to Plaza corridor. (NKC maybe I guess).
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 2243
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

GRID wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:28 am
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:34 am Interestingly it seems like everyone here is proposing light rail and you keep reading streetcar.
Maybe on this forum. But all I ever hear or read about is streetcars and commuter rail as potential options from KC area planners etc. Seems like LRT is not even remotely in the cards anymore for KC. That's fine, but KC should stop talking about transit to the stadiums, airport etc then and just concentrate on the River to Plaza corridor. (NKC maybe I guess).
This is the realistic approach.
User avatar
normalthings
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7451
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by normalthings »

DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:37 pm
GRID wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:28 am
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:34 am Interestingly it seems like everyone here is proposing light rail and you keep reading streetcar.
Maybe on this forum. But all I ever hear or read about is streetcars and commuter rail as potential options from KC area planners etc. Seems like LRT is not even remotely in the cards anymore for KC. That's fine, but KC should stop talking about transit to the stadiums, airport etc then and just concentrate on the River to Plaza corridor. (NKC maybe I guess).
This is the realistic approach.
Streetcar has a really good brand. Everyone likes riding, wants to expand it, etc. slap that brand on everything you can


NKC Burlington is a Light Rail Vehicle in a center inning dedicated lane. Sounds like light rail to me
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15995
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:39 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:37 pm
GRID wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:28 am

Maybe on this forum. But all I ever hear or read about is streetcars and commuter rail as potential options from KC area planners etc. Seems like LRT is not even remotely in the cards anymore for KC. That's fine, but KC should stop talking about transit to the stadiums, airport etc then and just concentrate on the River to Plaza corridor. (NKC maybe I guess).
This is the realistic approach.
Streetcar has a really good brand. Everyone likes riding, wants to expand it, etc. slap that brand on everything you can


NKC Burlington is a Light Rail Vehicle in a center inning dedicated lane. Sounds like light rail to me
If it gets built like that. I have a feeling it will be on Swift. And that's fine, but that changes everything on it being a local tram that goes to NKC vs transitioning to regional light rail to points further north. I guess we wait and see, but I don't think LRT is even being considered or even studied at a very high level anymore in KC, especially to the stadium. Last I heard they are looking at the KU to stadium corridor, but only for buses and streetcar.

Honestly it's kind of surprising that with all this talk about a new downtown ballpark and major investment at Arrowhead and the TSC, that a real transit study along the I-70 corridor has not even been brought up, let alone implemented. Just because KC is building the streetcar doesn't mean that's all it should build. The County could step up and get something going if they really wanted to see the TSC evolve into something better and see the rest of the county redevelop more.

I think it would also help get support for a downtown baseball stadium if voters knew the city and county were more serious about plans or even studies going on to bring rail into Jackson County. "where would we park" would become much less of an issue.

I-70 STILL needs to be rebuilt in Jackson County and transit should be a part of that study and design process and I don't even it's on anybody's radar at all. MoDot builds bare bones stuff to 1960's standards if local jurisdictions don't intervene and in the KC area, they rarely do.
User avatar
AlkaliAxel
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Location: West Plaza

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:25 am
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:59 pm
Noahfleshman wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:23 pm This city thinks it’s progressive but we just keep pouring money into big sports when we can’t even maintain parks at a city level.
But we haven't.

In fact, last almost 20 years we've done everything but sports. We got a pretty big transit line, a new airport, subsidized tons of new development...but yet the biggest thing we're struggling is actually investing properly in our sporting assets.
A. The tax payer stadium renovation investment surpasses that if the airport or streetcar.
B. Many would argue the proper level is none
Airport cost $1.5 bil, streetcar was $351 mil...the 2006 sales tax vote wasn't for anywhere near that much right?
User avatar
normalthings
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7451
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by normalthings »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:00 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:25 am
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:59 pm

But we haven't.

In fact, last almost 20 years we've done everything but sports. We got a pretty big transit line, a new airport, subsidized tons of new development...but yet the biggest thing we're struggling is actually investing properly in our sporting assets.
A. The tax payer stadium renovation investment surpasses that if the airport or streetcar.
B. Many would argue the proper level is none
Airport cost $1.5 bil, streetcar was $351 mil...the 2006 sales tax vote wasn't for anywhere near that much right?
City paid $0 for airport and discounted streetcar cost is less than stadiums
User avatar
TheLastGentleman
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2449
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:27 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I think branding everything KC streetcar is a good move. I know I have a hard time telling between all the different types of trams and metros and light rail, so I’m sure the average person has no clue. You could call any non-freight train a streetcar and nobody would question it
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15995
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by GRID »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:35 pm I think branding everything KC streetcar is a good move. I know I have a hard time telling between all the different types of trams and metros and light rail, so I’m sure the average person has no clue. You could call any non-freight train a streetcar and nobody would question it
Maybe I'm just too much of a transit nerd. To me the differences are dramatic and the type of vehicles used and how they are used makes a massive difference in the type of transit they provide.

I honestly think the way KC has done it so far is the way to go. Center running on Main would have been better to future proof the Main St corridor as the system evolves and the urban corridor will eventually need longer platforms etc, but it's fine. Urban trams, (even mixed traffic curb running) scale so much better for urban areas and likely play a bigger role in urban development than light rail or heavy rail.

However, the system really needs to be designed more to LRT standards when it starts to leave the urban core. Dedicated right of way at a bare minimum. You could have lines going to arrowhead and east into the suburbs, up to the northland etc and as they converge into the city, they would increase the frequency for those in the urban core for shorter more urban trips.

That's why the the route for the NKC extension will make a huge difference in the future of transit in KC. You really want to run that down Burlington and then future extensions will make sense, even to KCI. Run it down Swift and you will have a nice tram in NKC, but that's about it.

All I'm saying is that KC has never seriously studied transit in Jackson County outside of running some diesel hybrid commuter trains on the rail right of ways. That's just a waste of money. LRT is the only way to go for those types of routes or you may as well do nothing. Same with running streetcars in mixed use lanes from midtown the stadiums. Totally pointless. It would be very slow and very low capacity.

I still think LRT could be a part of rebuilding I-70 and straightening the curves. Use Truman Road etc. Then have a stop right at the stadium, (not way down by Raytown Road.), then jump into the US-40 corridor and Rock Island right of ways from there.
User avatar
normalthings
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7451
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:39 am
TheLastGentleman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:35 pm I think branding everything KC streetcar is a good move. I know I have a hard time telling between all the different types of trams and metros and light rail, so I’m sure the average person has no clue. You could call any non-freight train a streetcar and nobody would question it
Maybe I'm just too much of a transit nerd. To me the differences are dramatic and the type of vehicles used and how they are used makes a massive difference in the type of transit they provide.

I honestly think the way KC has done it so far is the way to go. Center running on Main would have been better to future proof the Main St corridor as the system evolves and the urban corridor will eventually need longer platforms etc, but it's fine. Urban trams, (even mixed traffic curb running) scale so much better for urban areas and likely play a bigger role in urban development than light rail or heavy rail.

However, the system really needs to be designed more to LRT standards when it starts to leave the urban core. Dedicated right of way at a bare minimum. You could have lines going to arrowhead and east into the suburbs, up to the northland etc and as they converge into the city, they would increase the frequency for those in the urban core for shorter more urban trips.

That's why the the route for the NKC extension will make a huge difference in the future of transit in KC. You really want to run that down Burlington and then future extensions will make sense, even to KCI. Run it down Swift and you will have a nice tram in NKC, but that's about it.

All I'm saying is that KC has never seriously studied transit in Jackson County outside of running some diesel hybrid commuter trains on the rail right of ways. That's just a waste of money. LRT is the only way to go for those types of routes or you may as well do nothing. Same with running streetcars in mixed use lanes from midtown the stadiums. Totally pointless. It would be very slow and very low capacity.

I still think LRT could be a part of rebuilding I-70 and straightening the curves. Use Truman Road etc. Then have a stop right at the stadium, (not way down by Raytown Road.), then jump into the US-40 corridor and Rock Island right of ways from there.
LRT/"Streetcar Plus" was studied throughout the original commuter rail study. Streetcar is clearly a marketing term

Image
moderne
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4892
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: Mount Hope

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by moderne »

Saw some things on how Montreal fixed its 1976 Olympic Stadium. Taking a dated structure and making it work for now. It originally was to have a movable fabric roof lifted by cables attached to a 400 foot tower cantilevered over the structure. The tower was not finished at the time of the Olympics. When it was finished the roof never worked properly and tore. The stadium was unused for a while and they put a fixed roof over it. The bulk of the tower was to house retracted cables and roof fabric. That space was unused until a few years back they took the concrete cladding off and covered it with a glass curtain wall to become a tilted office tower. The exact thing would not apply to Arrowhead but solutions down a similar path could make a 50 year old stadium relevant. Any architect can design a new stadium, but adapting an already built structure is where the genius in design is. Any concrete needed for remodeling could be recycled from a razed Kauffman.
SiouxCity KCMO Man
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by SiouxCity KCMO Man »

We have all the damn sports architecture firms here, one or a consortium of them have to be able to come up with a way to renovate Arrowhead. If it stays there a dome is a must. I just think it's probably not the best business decision for the Hunt family. The area all around TSC is run down. How can they revitalize the area? Short answer is that they can't. You couldn't even build up the area around it to try. There's a huge industrial park just to the west and north and south the area is not in good shape. It will be very interesting how it plays out.
User avatar
normalthings
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7451
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by normalthings »

You can renovate TSC but it will cost similar to new build so May as well start over
Rusty Irish
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:28 pm

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by Rusty Irish »

SiouxCity KCMO Man wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:08 pm We have all the damn sports architecture firms here, one or a consortium of them have to be able to come up with a way to renovate Arrowhead. If it stays there a dome is a must. I just think it's probably not the best business decision for the Hunt family. The area all around TSC is run down. How can they revitalize the area? Short answer is that they can't. You couldn't even build up the area around it to try. There's a huge industrial park just to the west and north and south the area is not in good shape. It will be very interesting how it plays out.
Plus its build below ground and cut off from the surrounding area by expressways and ramps.

I think they could make TSC work, but it would require heavy investment and sacrifices. It's 380 acres or something like that so thats tonnes of room, however that's where a decision needs to be made. In order to make it viable year round without other anchor tenants you're going to have to heavily develop most of the site and that then negates it's main strength - parking and thus a loss of tailgating space. Every sports anchored development in the US has more than one team's games to draw traffic - whether it be additional teams or proximity to other destinations or uses. Even Green Bay has a convention center/arena across the street.

The Titans proposed development is suggesting 10k residential units - however thats right across the river from Broadway and DT Nashville - this is an industrial area of Kansas City. I'm not saying we should go for 10k units necessarily or that there would be the appetite however I think we can strive for better than a bare bones stadium and surface parking. The very presence of stadiums now is attracting development. Its been the case for over a decade. People want to live in close proximity to their favorite teams and they'll pay above the going rate to do so.
User avatar
alejandro46
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1069
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: New Chiefs Stadium

Post by alejandro46 »

Rusty Irish wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:55 am
SiouxCity KCMO Man wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:08 pm We have all the damn sports architecture firms here, one or a consortium of them have to be able to come up with a way to renovate Arrowhead. If it stays there a dome is a must. I just think it's probably not the best business decision for the Hunt family. The area all around TSC is run down. How can they revitalize the area? Short answer is that they can't. You couldn't even build up the area around it to try. There's a huge industrial park just to the west and north and south the area is not in good shape. It will be very interesting how it plays out.
Plus its build below ground and cut off from the surrounding area by expressways and ramps.

I think they could make TSC work, but it would require heavy investment and sacrifices. It's 380 acres or something like that so thats tonnes of room, however that's where a decision needs to be made. In order to make it viable year round without other anchor tenants you're going to have to heavily develop most of the site and that then negates it's main strength - parking and thus a loss of tailgating space. Every sports anchored development in the US has more than one team's games to draw traffic - whether it be additional teams or proximity to other destinations or uses. Even Green Bay has a convention center/arena across the street.

The Titans proposed development is suggesting 10k residential units - however thats right across the river from Broadway and DT Nashville - this is an industrial area of Kansas City. I'm not saying we should go for 10k units necessarily or that there would be the appetite however I think we can strive for better than a bare bones stadium and surface parking. The very presence of stadiums now is attracting development. Its been the case for over a decade. People want to live in close proximity to their favorite teams and they'll pay above the going rate to do so.
I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but wanted to re-up as I think that parts of Patriot Place could look like a new TSC.

Controlled parking during gamedays, open to retailers during off days. Bass Pro anchor, hotels, apartments, shopping etc. Suburban Foxborough isn't as bad as the area around TSC, but definitely not urban. There is a metro line that runs to the stadium, but not sure how much use it actually gets. Also, we don't know for sure that TSC would be more expensive than a new stadium. Especially if they can leverage the $50M investment into World Cup renovations into updating the facility. I think a lot of it does depened on if a dome is a requirement (which it may be). Yes Patriot Place has a LOT of parking, but again, it's a football stadium, people want to tail gate and the team makes revenue off parking.

https://www.arrowstreet.com/portfolio/p ... ster-plan/

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Patri ... -71.268784

However, retail is soft right now. It's not a "build it and they will come" scenario, I think they also need to add housing. Other stadium anchored developments have not done particularly well but a lot of teams around the legaue are trying to build these types of spin off development around the stadiums. See the Bears, Jaguars, Cardinals, and so on.
Post Reply