Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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Critical_Mass
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Critical_Mass »

On game days, where more eating and drinking is involved having a large complex capable of handling hundreds or thousands of fans is crucial.
Ah, yes. I love visiting Chicago and hitting Wrigleyville before a Cubs game for their crucial large complex capable of handling hundreds or thousands of fans. Oh wait....

You don't need to assemble all the fans in a large complex before the game. That's what they'll do at the game.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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TheBigChuckbowski wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:25 pm
DColeKC wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:09 pm proven examples in STL
Having just got back from spending a few days in downtown STL, no thank you. We want no part of that. Downtown STL is currently a dystopian ghost town (but still with plenty of people visiting, somehow), worse than I remember downtown KC being when I moved here in 2006, even with huge advantages like downtown sports venues and the MetroLink.
DColeKC wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:02 pm That site is disconnected from anything conducive to a great baseball game experience.
So how would you rate Kauffman's current game experience? Not sure how anything surrounding a stadium has anything to do with the experience once you pass through the gates except for the view.

What days of the week were you in STL? What area are you talking about? Did you visit the area near the baseball stadium? Overall, downtown KC is far better in almost every way than downtown STL. The only "happening" area in downtown STL is the ballpark and the area next to it called Ballpark Village.

The current experience at Kauffman sucks for everyone except the diehard Royals fan who truly only cares about the game. Tailgating baseball is a complete joke. Have you ever been to games in other cities that have things to do around the stadium? The best baseball experiences don't simply start once you enter the gates and end once you leave them.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Critical_Mass wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:11 pm
On game days, where more eating and drinking is involved having a large complex capable of handling hundreds or thousands of fans is crucial.
Ah, yes. I love visiting Chicago and hitting Wrigleyville before a Cubs game for their crucial large complex capable of handling hundreds or thousands of fans. Oh wait....

You don't need to assemble all the fans in a large complex before the game. That's what they'll do at the game.
Way to use one of the oldest and most iconic stadiums as a poor example. But sure, if you want to build a new stadium and hope that a bunch of small-time bar/restaurant operators are going to come up with the funding to build a dozen or so venues to cater to the before and after crowd, I wish you luck.

I also didn't say anything about ALL the fans. Many of the fans go straight to the game and straight home. Maybe you're ignorant and have never been to what I'm referring to. It's a complex with a large open area and several bars and restaurants as part of the greater complex.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

KCDowntown wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:23 pm I'm inclined to think that if the only person on here who has seen the proposed renderings
I would imagine that is one proposed renderings. Sure there would be many more out there as time develops, especially one from Jackson County.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

I think in Fall they go public
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCDowntownLoop »

Karambit25 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:49 pm This is why Washington Square is STILL the best possible location. It's right on the streetcar and across the street from Crown Center, Union Station, Liberty Memorial and a 4 minute streetcar ride to P&L.

And with the south loop park completed, there is no hindrance to walking from the loop.


This park is simply unnecessary and is the best location, best views and will spur more mid-high residential development in the East Crossroads. The ONLY drawback is space but we can get this done with our hometown architects.
I don't think it will happen, but I agree Washington Park would be the best site. Bars and restaurants already exist in the Freighthouse District, more could be added to Union Station and Crown Center, Martini Corner is nearby, all of the Crossroads/East Crossroads breweries and restaurants, Grinders, Parlor, Green Lady Lounge, even Midtown with everything along the streetcar from River Market to the Plaza. Liberty Memorial could feature outdoor food vendors, entertainers, pre-game picnics, etc. Here's a shoddy Photoshop I did more than a decade ago....

https://kcdowntownloop.substack.com/p/a ... dium?sd=pf
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by FangKC »

This is an interesting article about how Atlanta used technology for traffic management during the World Series.

https://www.esri.com/about/newsroom/arc ... ld-series/
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Karambit25 »

KCDowntownLoop wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 pm
Karambit25 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:49 pm This is why Washington Square is STILL the best possible location. It's right on the streetcar and across the street from Crown Center, Union Station, Liberty Memorial and a 4 minute streetcar ride to P&L.

And with the south loop park completed, there is no hindrance to walking from the loop.


This park is simply unnecessary and is the best location, best views and will spur more mid-high residential development in the East Crossroads. The ONLY drawback is space but we can get this done with our hometown architects.


I don't think it will happen, but I agree Washington Park would be the best site. Bars and restaurants already exist in the Freighthouse District, more could be added to Union Station and Crown Center, Martini Corner is nearby, all of the Crossroads/East Crossroads breweries and restaurants, Grinders, Parlor, Green Lady Lounge, even Midtown with everything along the streetcar from River Market to the Plaza. Liberty Memorial could feature outdoor food vendors, entertainers, pre-game picnics, etc. Here's a shoddy Photoshop I did more than a decade ago....

https://kcdowntownloop.substack.com/p/a ... dium?sd=pf
Very cool photoshop! And you point out that Martini Corner and Freighthouse is nearby. Putting the stadium there would be a great fit as there are plenty of bars and restaurants nearby. Plus you have the synergy of adding conventioneers and family trips tied in. The visitor synergy is off the charts. And again right on the streetcar line. Jo. Countians could even park on the Plaza or on the West Side.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

Washington SQ Park is the perfect location, but is there any chance at all that a stadium will fit there? Even a minor league sized stadium would have a really hard time fitting there.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCDowntownLoop »

GRID wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:32 am Washington SQ Park is the perfect location, but is there any chance at all that a stadium will fit there? Even a minor league sized stadium would have a really hard time fitting there.
Looking at Google Maps, probably not. It's more narrow east and west than I realized. I bet they could expand farther north than the park, but not sure how they could squeeze in east and west, esp. with BC/BS building there. Fenway actually might fit in there, but nothing larger.

Maybe build edges of stadium to claim space over Main and Grand with cars and streetcars running below? Just thinking out loud, don't take these musings too seriously.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by phuqueue »

DColeKC wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:09 pm The stadium is a mix of public assets and privately owned entity. There was no talk of a downtown stadium until developers and the city invested in downtown thus making it possible. I'm not advocating for one location over the other and I'm definitely not saying it should go where it only benefits certain developers. Yet it's hard to argue it shouldn't go near PNL based on the fact that cordish are the experts at this baseball entertainment deal with proven examples in STL, Texas, Atlanta, Philly etc. So you have this major asset already built, operated by a company who specializes in baseball stadium entertainment complexes around the country. Why wouldn't you do everything possible to put it close and create that fan experience?

You say a smaller entertainment complex in east village really won't hurt other's that much. That's completely false. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars a week if there's a home stint.

I too care about the overall impact on downtown and want whats' best for all of downtown. I happen to think a certain location or two works the best for everyone, including ALL the developers and city folks who laid the ground work to even make it a possibility. On top of that, these locations will offer the best fan experience possible. Hopefully making a weekend Royals game more palatable when they're not winning.

As far as stadiums being gigantic holes when not in use. It doesn't have to be. STL isn't that way as it's vibrant and the baseball stadium just adds to the fabric of downtown even where there's no home game. Wonder why that is? Could it be the entertainment complex, office buildings, gyms, hotels and residential towers operated by Cordish and the Cardinals? Probably.
This conversation isn't really going anywhere, which I guess is not surprising since on both sides these are just vaguely defined ideas and not real plans with concrete details from which it could be reasonable to draw conclusions like "Cordish will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars a week" (or, to follow on from that, why it is or isn't acceptable for Cordish to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars a week in light of what we are getting in return). I'm not saying that a smaller complex wouldn't hurt P&L -- I think it's impossible to know what affect any other complex would really have on P&L until there is a specific proposal for such a complex and we can look at what it will actually entail. But what I'm saying is that I don't think there will be a complex to hurt P&L, which, admittedly, is also just idle speculation at this point. To return to the initial point, I believe that, all else being equal, the city's priority should be to develop currently under-utilized land instead of demolishing existing occupied buildings. If we end up with dueling proposals for the site you are advocating vs. EV (or any other site), we can discuss their respective merits and drawbacks at that time. In the meantime, I don't see any real value in debating how much revenue Cordish stands to gain or lose depending on where the stadium is built, and as far as I'm concerned, Cordish's business shouldn't be a key consideration in picking a site.

I haven't been to STL in about ten years, so I will have to take your word for it that Ballpark Village is "vibrant" (though my impression from this thread has been that this is not the prevailing opinion), but that vibrancy is in spite of, not thanks to, the presence of the stadium. Cordish and the Cardinals willed a working neighborhood into existence next to the stadium. In KC, the Cordish entertainment complex and the neighborhood are already there, no stadium needed to incentivize anyone to force them into existence. If placing the stadium closer to P&L results in a greater benefit to the city (not to Cordish, or to Cordish's tenants, or to the "fan experience" at the game, or anyone else), then sure, put it there. But I'm not convinced that bulldozing existing buildings that are used every day to build a superblock that will sit empty for nearly 80% of the year is better for the city than building that superblock on parking lots a few blocks away, where it is simultaneously still easily accessible from the downtown core but also far enough removed from it not to seriously damage the urban environment. There has to be an argument about how you're actually improving the neighborhood -- for ordinary people who are not necessarily attending a baseball game -- by putting the stadium there, not just appeals to the "fan experience" (not a valid use of taxpayer money, in my view) or to reward investors for things they've already built on the strength of the neighborhood's stadium-less fundamentals.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

^ A couple of things on this. I too want the ideal overall decision to be made. This is a fairly rare opportunity and large project that will be here for half a century. If all the pro's and con's are weighed and 18th and Vine is the best choice, I won't agree but I know the work will go into making the best choice.

I once again have to say I'm not a cordish paid poster on here. I know I'm a "fanboi" of them so to speak but that's due to personal relationships, not money or anything else. I've always been excited about what they are doing in this city and I tend to give them more credit than others. Granted several on this board do give credit to them for being an important player in the downtown resurrection.

All that said, I'm certain Cordish has money invested towards the stadium as do many interested parties across the city. I'm also sure they've done the financial modeling centered around the various locations and that will be the main influence on how much of a investor they want to be.

I have a completely different development philosophy than you. I think it's bad planning to force, suggest or persuade development happen in under-utilized areas simply because the area is there, available and not utilized. If it means the stadium is more successful being a few blocks down in a slightly more utilized space, that's where it should go. I don't advocate for tearing down useable, historic or massively expensive (Star Printing) buildings simply to build something new. In some instances, like the PNL district for example, seeing a dozen or so buildings go away was worth it.

It just seems eating up under-utilized areas make the top of some people's priority list regardless of other important factors.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

Before KCPowerCat comments that this is TLDR, I'll get back on topic.

Downtown baseball coming 2026! ;)
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm Before KCPowerCat comments that this is TLDR, I'll get back on topic.

Downtown baseball coming 2026! ;)
How certain???
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

Anyone else concerned a stadium built that quickly would end up cheap and look like a Butler Manufacturing building with low grade bleachers? A little more acceptable if entirely privately financed, maybe.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm Before KCPowerCat comments that this is TLDR, I'll get back on topic.

Downtown baseball coming 2026! ;)
Big if true
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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earthling wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:15 pm Anyone else concerned a stadium built that quickly would end up cheap and look like a Butler Manufacturing building with low grade bleachers? A little more acceptable if entirely privately financed, maybe.
36 months is plenty of time. Allegiant Stadium was done in 31 months.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:12 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm Before KCPowerCat comments that this is TLDR, I'll get back on topic.

Downtown baseball coming 2026! ;)
How certain???
I'm not certain about anything these days but that's a goal that has been set. It is ambitious.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

It makes sense. If you were gonna get done around 2027 anyway, you might as well push it up to show off your new stadium to the world for WC2026. Why wait till 2027 then and miss the biggest showcase ever.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

DColeKC wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:48 pm What days of the week were you in STL? What area are you talking about? Did you visit the area near the baseball stadium? Overall, downtown KC is far better in almost every way than downtown STL. The only "happening" area in downtown STL is the ballpark and the area next to it called Ballpark Village.
Saturday-Tuesday. Stayed by the arch, walked all over downtown. The Cards weren't in town so I didn't exactly see Ballpark Village at its peak but "The only "happening" area in downtown STL is the ballpark and the area next to it called Ballpark Village" is exactly the point. Downtown is more than P&L or Ballpark Village. Whether those two places are successful or not is only a small part of whether those downtowns as a whole are successful or not. I have no interest in replicating anything that STL is currently doing in its downtown.
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