Downtown Baseball Stadium

[daGOAT]

I mean alot of people mistakenly consider it DTKC anyway. Ima Eastside kid and I'm always gonna claim 18th and Vine as part of that.

[daGOAT]

^ I feel like you are scared that a ballpark in the Vine district won't help the P&L district. I really think that a ballpark anywhere in the downtown area (including the Jazz district) will be of tremendous benefit to the P&L district. The district can only support so many people and would likely be overwhelmed if a stadium is too close. If 25,000 people go to a game in the jazz district, I'm sure that a good amount of them would make it to the P&L district before and after the games and they would be the actually customers of the district, not just people parking in the P&L garages.

If the stadium is too close to the P&L district, the district would likely be totally dead "during" games.

If the stadium were in downtown, but not just blocks away, the P&L district could still function yet benefit from fans before and after the games.

This is just from my experience in DC, Baltimore and many other stadiums across the country.

So we should spend many millions more to make this site useable even tho it already has a potential redevelopment in place and the other site can remain parking lots? Will that get the voters to approve their share?

[FlippantCitizen]

I agree that when the stadium goes to the core (anywhere in the vicinity of dowtown) P&L will benefit massively. Helping bring up revenue there is important due to the city's commitment to it but on a personal level I would be happier to bridge the Crossroads to 18th and Vine and create a continuous flow between the two. I'm not going to P&L one way or the other but for a lot of people that is basically the downtown entertainment default.

[GRID]

So we should spend many millions more to make this site useable even tho it already has a potential redevelopment in place and the other site can remain parking lots? Will that get the voters to approve their share?

East village would not remain parking lots if the stadium goes to 18th and vine. It would likely develop into an actual small neighborhood of 5-7 story apartment buildings. The land is not even worth anything as parking lots as downtown no longer has the employment to sustain them as profitable parking lots. The land would no longer be land banked and would likely develop.

The KCATA needs to move and that's a huge amount of space. That along with the school district property would not cost that much to put together. There is still a lot of privately owned land in east village too that would have to be bought by the Royals or whoever builds the stadium.

I just don't see the government district and east loop of downtown ever being a destination. Too many highways, too many gov buildings. It just won't be a very happening place. The Jazz district has a real chance to become a really vibrant thriving area and it's still close to the downtown loop, yet closer to Union Station, Crown Center, east crossroads and developing neighborhoods like Beacon Hill.

I also think an east/west streetcar line directly serving the stadium, union station and the west side will happen with a jazz district loation.

The stadium there would be tied to more of KC's history and culture. The NLBM, the Jazz district etc. It just makes more sense.

The P&L District could run free shuttles to the Jazz district or offer free parking to people with validated purchases in the district. If the stadium is in the east village, the P&L district will be clobbered with people trying to park there, not people trying to eat there.

[TheLastGentleman]

Put the baseball park by the baseball museum.

[earthling]

Am indifferent on which location but if they plan on several towers as part of the project (and they should), skyline wise it would fit better within EV.

[daGOAT]

Or the Jazz District could develop as 5-7 story apartments, which is actually happening, and DTKC could remain hub for tourism and entertainment. Lets be real the average Royals fan will frequent Power and Light before 18th and Vine, and once again people bat an eye at the lack of connectivity on highway system which will only complicate things. That will happen simultaneously to inner city transit riders getting complicated by a lack of real transit or potential in improving of such things in a manor that has proven successful in the city (rail>bus) or even a decent MAX line. Just use your brain. And think about it, sheesh!

[KCPowercat]

You are gith, it will be more like Troost. Great point.

[kboish]

One of the most interesting things about the discussion in the public realm (not necessarily on the forum) is how some people's views have changed on whether or not stadiums induce development. Seems like many of those whose would argue against public incentives for stadiums would normally argue that stadiums are not worth the investment because you can't prove they result in additional community benefit or development spinoff have changed to the tact of- Why aren't you investing in the East Side/18th and Vine so the east side can benefit from all the spinoff investment that can occur. I have a feeling that if the Royals had initially started off with an 18th/Vine as the floated landing spot for the stadium, that the reaction would have been the opposite. About displacement and gentrification. Almost as if the narrative drivers are just searching for clicks

[GRID]

Here we go again.

Folks the ball park isn't going to be built on Vine.

No but that location would bridge the gap between the Vine district and the rest of downtown.

My biggest issue is the Highway 71. The freeways in downtown KC just never stop being a total PITA.

[AlkaliAxel]

Here we go again.

Folks the ball park isn't going to be built on Vine.

No but that location would bridge the gap between the Vine district and the rest of downtown.

My biggest issue is the Highway 71. The freeways in downtown KC just never stop being a total PITA.

This is my biggest problem as well. I’ve been convinced for a while now the downtowns biggest problem are the highways. It’s all about walkability. You gotta have it.

[GRID]

Am indifferent on which location but if they plan on several towers as part of the project (and they should), skyline wise it would fit better within EV.

Both projects will require

A 3/4 - 1 billion dollar stadium.

At least 200-300 million in infrastructure improvements for the most basic improvements, more to do things right.

A major commitment to actually build a substantial commercial project along with the stadium (high rise apartments etc).

If all of these are not part of a project at either location, then you may as well just build a new stadium at the sports complex because you won't get the public to pass a vote without this other stuff and the stadium won't be as successful if it is somehow built as basically a stand alone project.


So yeah, if the city and the Royals came up with a well thought out plan for east village that includes developing towers within the loop and properly covering at least part of the east highway loop and developing the west Paseo neighborhood, then yeah East Village could work. But you can not only build a stadium and just have a "plan" for the rest. The "rest" would never happen or it would take decades to build 20% of the plan.

[AlkaliAxel]

The EV plan supposedly is going to have very good bridges for pedestrians, bike & busses over the east loop. That part got me on board fully.

[Cratedigger]

If there's a E/W streetcar on 19th street/Southwest Blvd and I can get Tacos or Boulevard before the game, then I'd be fine with 18th & Vine location.

But East Village just seems to make more sense. KC always seems to spread their assets too far out. Let's change that and keep the momentum going!

Plus the helicopter views of the stadium and fans with the KC skyline behind it will be great.


One cool thing in the Star article was a mention of a design competition where some UC Berkley students created a plan for an East Village ballpark. Made a point to mention that the Royals haven't reached out to this team, but tell me this doesn't look sick.




Link to their entry summary
https://americas.uli.org/2021-uli-hines ... -berkeley/

Link to their Final Submission Materials
https://uli.secure-platform.com/a/galle ... tails/4029

[DColeKC]

^ I feel like you are scared that a ballpark in the Vine district won't help the P&L district. I really think that a ballpark anywhere in the downtown area (including the Jazz district) will be of tremendous benefit to the P&L district. The district can only support so many people and would likely be overwhelmed if a stadium is too close. If 25,000 people go to a game in the jazz district, I'm sure that a good amount of them would make it to the P&L district before and after the games and they would be the actual customers of the district, not just people parking in the P&L garages.

If the stadium is too close to the P&L district, the district would likely be totally dead "during" games.

If the stadium were in downtown, but not just blocks away, the P&L district could still function yet benefit from fans before and after the games.

This is just from my experience in DC, Baltimore and many other stadiums across the country.

Ballpark village has no issues with 40,000 baseball fans across the street and it's substantially smaller than the live block, not to mention the other 8 city blocks PNL has with food and entertainment options.

The district wouldn't be dead during the games because the people running it are smart and would program around it. This works in other markets Cordish owns. Texas, STL, ATL.

I don't see even a decent amount of people eating and drinking before and after games in PNL or crossroads if located in Vine District. It's far too long of a walk, not located near any hotels and people won't get in and out of their cars.

[DColeKC]

Not to mention, why wouldn't you want to be close to PNL when Cordish has established themselves as the leader with these stadium/entertainment areas. Seems like they would be a critical partner in this and they won't support a Vine district stadium. They've not said that but it's understandable.

[GRID]

^ But that has to be a part of the original project and go up at the same time or I just don't see these surrounding towers going up. One 20 story building every 5-10 years is not going to get it done.

Think about this. If the Sprint Center had gone up as a stand alone project and Cordish was not going up at the same time, what would the area around the arena look like today?

I'm sorry, but I think it would look more like it does east of Grand than it now does west of Grand. I mean almost nothing has happened east of Grand directly around the arena since the arena was built and that's been what over ten years. More parking lots have come.

There has to be plan that can be implemented and will be implemented at the same time.

[normalthings]

Wish it could go on the west side of 71. 71 will create such a barrier if the stadium is east of the highway. I don't like East Village either though unless there is a serious plan to build up the area east of the freeway loop and or cover the freeway loop.

I just don't see how sticking a stadium in that area of downtown will do much. It's landlocked by highways and most of the surrounding development is government buildings which may as well be parking lots as far as how they will interact with a stadium.

If we have to go with these two sites, I would probably choose 18th and Vine. At least the stadium will face something besides a highway as it could really anchor the jazz district, the museums etc. Also, while the east village is a lot closer to the P&L district, a jazz district location would be closer to more of downtown like Crown Center etc.

Stadium needs to be close to food and drink options. Not museums or other attractions. Baseball games will help fuel existing bars and restaurants if placed in the right location but it makes no sense to place it close to something like Crown Center for the 5% of fans coming into town making it vacation and wanting to see all the sights.

The city overestimated the tax revenue for PNL and this would be a smart move to bolster those revenues. Not to mention, this would be a great case study in why investment and PPP's are crucial not only for the immediate future but 15-20 years out.

Let's double down on PNL, Crossroads and Rivermarket instead of diluting the overall success because 18th and Vine has never taken off. A baseball stadium won't fix it either, it will be so disconnected from what most people consider downtown and all the people who've been waiting to jump on development opportunities won't hesitate to spend on EV location but will pump the breaks quick on a 18th and Vine location. From what I've been told.

6 blocks from Busch there is minimal game day activity in my 15 year experience. P&L is far from the EV and a stadium there would look to replicate some sort of immediately adjacent entertainment.

[daGOAT]

Its quite literally East Village or bust


PS you can get tacos on East 12th Street too

PSS P&L is closer to EV than East Crossroads is to 18th and Troost and has two major blocks cleared for redevelopment...

[Cratedigger]

^ But that has to be a part of the original project and go up at the same time or I just don't see these surrounding towers going up. One 20 story building every 5-10 years is not going to get it done.

Think about this. If the Sprint Center had gone up as a stand alone project and Cordish was not going up at the same time, what would the area around the arena look like today?

I'm sorry, but I think it would look more like it does east of Grand than it now does west of Grand. I mean almost nothing has happened east of Grand directly around the arena since the arena was built and that's been what over ten years. More parking lots have come.

There has to be plan that can be implemented and will be implemented at the same time.

What I take from the whole the "Atlanta stadium is the model" discussion is that there would be a plan beyond the stadium. Stadium as the anchor, but other mixed use developments would be part of the initial build out.