Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[ericwyner]

Hopefully a Target goes in there

but not very touristy for tourists from Joplin

[ericwyner]

H&M

Correct. The Plaza H&M apparently went from being one of the best performing locations during the first few years of business to the second-lowest in sales in the metro. The loss-leaders for the region are apparently Manhattan Town Center, Lee's Summit, St. Peter's, MO, and then The Plaza followed by good ol' Independence Center. The Plaza store does fine on weekends, but the shrink numbers are pretty high. This friend previously worked for Gap when the Plaza GAP and Bradley Fair GAP in Wichita were two of the most productive stores for the brand in the midwest.

^Yeah, have been calling for similar changes in that territory for years. It's time now. But Plaza probably needs to be sold off to an experienced urbane mixed use operator/developer, not a generic mall operator unable to adapt with the times. Am not at all surprised current owners blew it with Nordstroms.

viewtopic.php?t=20330

Taubman should actually have a pretty good relationship with Nordstrom considering that Taubman has the market cornered on the nation's top-performing malls. Nordstrom seems to be the one who got cold feet and looking at the Plaza's long history of failure with department stores ranging from Bonwit Teller to Sears, there was never a legit reason IMO to think that Nordstrom would succeed where Saks, Dillard's, and Sears couldn't, especially after they couldn't generate the sales they wanted at Oak Park even back when it was one of the nations most productive malls.

I agree that Taubman isn't running the Plaza very well and that they need to take a loss and sell it to a developer who knows how to work with urban spaces, but Taubman overall is far from an inept company. Their history is riddled with them dumping their self-developed malls onto other developers the second they show a sign of weakness. The Plaza and their recent failure in Puerto Rico are somewhat of a first real blemish on their reputation.

I used to be one of those people who shopped at that location. Always busy on the weekends too. COVID happened and they implemented that ridiculous policy of no dressing rooms. So I figured if I can try the stuff on I will just order online and save money.

a lot of places used the pandemic as an excuse for closing dressing rooms, but it does save them a few $ not having them cheap teen laborforce clean them

[AlkaliAxel]

I think a Target would be better in downtown, Crossroads, or Midtown rather than the Plaza.

[FangKC]

Yet, a Target Plaza location would likely be too close to the Ward Parkway Shopping Center Target. The area likely couldn't support both locations.

[beautyfromashes]

I think there were several retailers on the Plaza who were waiting for Nordstroms with the hope it would revive business and keep them from shuttering. My guess is the lifeboats are being lowered on quite a few small places on the Plaza tonight. I'd guess you're getting very, very close to loan default at this point too. Investors have to be getting worried and this is a definite stain on the owner's portfolio. Something will happen very soon.

[AlkaliAxel]

I think a Target would be better in downtown, Crossroads, or Midtown rather than the Plaza.

Nah Plaza/midtown has double the population. They absolutely need to do something with the plaza & westport. Can't have those fail just for downtown.

I think Westport could be a good spot for sure

[ericwyner]

I think a Target would be better in downtown, Crossroads, or Midtown rather than the Plaza.

although don't they like to locate next to other chains?

[dukuboy1]

But can have 2 Nordstroms because couple JCPENNY's,Dillard's in area.

STL has 2 Nordstrom's and that's not quite a booming area

My guess it’s just a pure numbers game. There metro has about 600-700k more ppl than we do. More opportunity for sales, etc. plus I think one of those stores has a longer history in town & a location that remains popular & somewhat insulated from recent retail store pullback. But just have more ppl to generate more sales. That’s why they have a few more chains than we do because of that extra metro population. Companies look at that and project market share

[empires228]

But if you want to buy anything now you have to go to OP land for just about anything. Northland doesn't have anything either. Maybe it will change over the years but still. A huge black eye for the Plaza . They are better off seeling the pieces to individual partners now and let each group develop what they will

You can blame MD for the Northland thing. They’re the ones who failed to reinvigorate Metro North and add popular chain stores that would have kept the growing middle class population of the Northland from driving to Oak Park or Independence Center, both of which underwent a huge redevelopment just as Metro North lost Wards and jumped the horse. MD then bungled the redevelopment into a new mall despite having Macy’s, Trader Joe’s, and what my sources tell me was intended to be a second Von Maur signed or ready to sign. Apparently they couldn’t find and speciality stores despite it being around the time when the exodus of national stores started to snowball at Zona Rosa. MD is quite famous in the retail fans community for having once owned eight mismanaged dead malls in the Midwest/Denver. At one point they ran the most successful mall in Kansas City, Denver, and Toledo and bungled all of that post bid rigging scandal.

It would have been nice if JC Nichols Corp. had built more of our suburban centers in KC because MD was good at building malls and bad at running them and Copaken was somewhat bad at building them and was only ever subpar at running them.

It’s amazing how in a city that literally has the Brookside shopping district and Plaza as the national shining examples of how to build a “lifestyle center” that we still ended up with half-baked attempts like Corbin Park, Summit Fair, and Zona Rosa that failed to look at what already worked and didn’t work in the market. Zona might have worked out better if Steinert hadn’t scraped plans for it to better integrate into the neighborhood and scrapped the plans for a hotel or two. The Plaza has a lot going for it, but desperately needs more residential as many people on here have pointed out. I’m not sure if the street car will help it out much or not at this point. Time will tell!

But can have 2 Nordstroms because couple JCPENNY's,Dillard's in area.

STL has 2 Nordstrom's and that's not quite a booming area

Saks Fifth Avenue is the store that has a long history in St. Louis. They historically had a store on the central west end, which could have been like the plaza for St. Louis and it’s still a nice area, but Plaza Frontenac came along and took what was left of its thunder. The gated community where the idiot lawyers who waved guns in the face of protesters is only a few blocks away from where the old Saks Fifth Avenue store was.

The wealth in St. Louis is far more concentrated into a single area than it is in KC. Plaza Frontenac, the Galleria, and West County wouldn’t be able to survive if they were that close in many other markets, but they all have have easy access to the best demographics in their market. We have have proof that we couldn’t have that here in Ward Parkway VS Metcalf South VS Oak Park. They did lose Crestwood Court (likely sabotaged by Westfield by all accounts) and Chesterfield within that bubble of wealth, but we just don’t have that level of concentration here. We’d have to shove Hallbrook, south OP, Cedar Creek, and Loch Lloyd right up against Misison Hills and the country club district to have anything remotely similar. Right now we kinda have that from 119th south in JOCO and somewhat along state line in Missouri where there are some upscale housing subdivisions, but it’s much lower density than say Frontenac, Ladue, Des Peres, and Huntley, MO.

St. Louis, well at least until Westfield left and dumped their malls onto CBL also had the fortune to not have their malls run by local developers who were inept at managing malls. Westfield dumped a crap ton of money into Northwest Plaza and Chesterfield before giving up. Copaken dumped Bannister and Indian Springs on a dime and seemingly had no idea what to do with Oak Park, Town Pavilion, or especially Mission Center. MD on the other hand never even bothered to give Metro North a full renovation and it was demolished with quite a few original fixtures. Adding mirrors and neon around the balloon fountain doesn’t exactly make for a transformative refresh. Oak Park on the other hand was effectively “bleached” by both Copaken and CBL and has to be one of the blandest-looking centers of its type in the nation. Simon did some nice things with its twin mall, Rockaway Townsquare up in New Jersey including ripping off and installing a new center court ceiling so it doesn’t leak all the time.

[beautyfromashes]

Total incompetence of the management. And you can't say it's not because there isn't demand to be on the Plaza. There's been new restaurants built all around it while the Plaza has seen nothing. Christopher Elbow would kill on the Plaza, especially during Christmas. Not sure they've even been approached or pitched. Chiefs Fit: Why not on the Plaza instead of just off? They are absolutely lost. Or they're not even trying.

[kcjak]

I'm no expert when it comes to contracts, but wouldn't most agreements like the one with Nordstrom have some sort of contingencies in case they DIDN'T move as planned? I mean an entire parking structure and businesses were demolished with the expectation that Nordstrom would be there. On a side note, maybe Oak Park has something planned for the overall environment because that mall is in pretty bad shape physically and with a lot of empty stores.

[Highlander]

I'm no expert when it comes to contracts, but wouldn't most agreements like the one with Nordstrom have some sort of contingencies in case they DIDN'T move as planned? I mean an entire parking structure and businesses were demolished with the expectation that Nordstrom would be there. On a side note, maybe Oak Park has something planned for the overall environment because that mall is in pretty bad shape physically and with a lot of empty stores.

I suspect this has been a done deal for a while now and contract negotiations are the reasons it is only now being announced. I heard the rumors from a pretty reliable source way back in September. I wonder what the Plaza owners are getting (or salvaging) out of the deal?

Nonetheless, a pretty major setback for the Plaza any way you look at it.

[Highlander]

We just don’t have that level of concentration here. We’d have to shove Hallbrook, south OP, Cedar Creek, and Loch Lloyd right up against Misison Hills and the country club district to have anything remotely similar. Right now we kinda have that from 119th south in JOCO and somewhat along state line in Missouri where there are some upscale housing subdivisions, but it’s much lower density than say Frontenac, Ladue, Des Peres, and Huntley, MO.

I've been saying this for some time. The problem with the Plaza is that it is essentially landlocked. There's no room for new homes to be built that would invite affluence back into the KC urban environment. And even though there is a significant amount of wealth in Mission Hills, Brookside, Fairway, Prairie Village and northern Leawood, it pales in comparison to south Johnson County. The only ways to add wealth to the Plaza area is 1) increase the density in the Plaza and its environs by adding more people and 2. Gentrification (make what is already there more affluent).

Both are happening to some extent but, with the exception of the North Plaza area, they are happening at a relatively slow pace. The North Plaza area is both adding density and gentrifying at a very rapid pace. What is happening in North Plaza is starting to spill over a little into the West Plaza area. Prairie Village is adding some wealth (but not density) by the large number of tear-down rebuilds. But still, as you point out, these are relatively small additions compared to south Johnson County's expansive affluent neighborhoods. The area of gentrification needs to expand in KC. I know that's a dirty word to many but I'll never understand why so many think urban KC should remain forever poor with the exception of a few urban neighborhoods and a slightly more expansive area around the Plaza. KC still lags very far behind most cities I am familiar with (Houston, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis) in terms of the gentrification of its urban neighborhoods.

Adding some residential in the heart of the Plaza would be OK but it's a drop in the bucket relative to what is needed to revive the Plaza. Although I have no experience in retail, it seems to me the Plaza ownership has not helped their cause either. Not really sure what the issue is but lack of a large affluent nearby population cannot be the only reason the Plaza is hemorrhaging tenants.

[daGOAT]

Alot of shopping centers have been struggling, and really if the Plaza wasn't such a destination it would likely be even worse off. What we have is one of the more interesting developments in the entire nation, that really just needs a new vision whether it remains owned by a single entity or broken up to multiple parties. If the Plaza shifts towards residential, works with small biz, and focuses on neighborhood amenities we can guarantee a positive future of incremental sustainable growth. If a dozen storefronts on the Plaza helps people come around to the inevitability of change, then it's all for the better.

[empires228]

I'm no expert when it comes to contracts, but wouldn't most agreements like the one with Nordstrom have some sort of contingencies in case they DIDN'T move as planned? I mean an entire parking structure and businesses were demolished with the expectation that Nordstrom would be there. On a side note, maybe Oak Park has something planned for the overall environment because that mall is in pretty bad shape physically and with a lot of empty stores.

All of the major malls in STL have 20-30 vacancies right now. Oak Park has eight and they’re pretty much all in the Nordstrom wing outside of the Wet Seal and Starbucks store by Dillard’s South.Charlotte Russe came back, and Anne Taylor, Subway, NY & Co., Swarovski (which also quietly closed on the plaza and most malls nationwide), The Limited, Panera, RadioShack, Microsoft (closed all stores) American Girl (who closed most of their stores) and Abercrombie Kids have all been filled with local stores. That leaves GNC, Yankee Candle, both of which are closing stores at a rapid pace (Yankee is down to just Town Center in KC), Starbucks (announced that they’d be closing most mall stores last year), Wet Seal (closed all stores), and The Walking Company (closed all stores) off the top of my head. Eight vacancies is just the number I pulled off the leasing map.

[AlkaliAxel]

I just want to say for clarification- the Plaza is still getting a ton of foot traffic. I moved to the Plaza a few months ago and it’s always got people everywhere. Goonies lives on the Plaza as well and can confirm the same thing- the foot traffic is great. Streetcar will probably grow it even more soon.

Which leads me to believe the issue with the Plaza is in the ownership.

[msmith011]

It's no surprise the Nordstrom wing has more vacancies and unfamiliar stores. What big brand name retailer would want to sign a lease there knowing Nordstrom is leaving? Now that plans have changed, I think we'll definitely see an increase in leasing activity among prime, in-demand retailers in that section of the mall. As for the Plaza, I wouldn't be surprised if retailers currently considering signing a lease there change their mind. Unless of course the Plaza has a decent backup plan in place. Part of me thinks that's why we're not hearing anything official yet -- from a PR perspective, it looks better to announce the Nordstrom news with a backup plan in place.

[mgsports]

Walmart?

[AlkaliAxel]

I just want to say for clarification- the Plaza is still getting a ton of foot traffic. I moved to the Plaza a few months ago and it’s always got people everywhere. Goonies lives on the Plaza as well and can confirm the same thing- the foot traffic is great. Streetcar will probably grow it even more soon.

Which leads me to believe the issue with the Plaza is in the ownership.

Wait you moved down here and we still haven't met up? Smh

Been too busy hanging out with GRID everyday

[FangKC]

At a time when so much multi-family residential is being built around KCMO, I'm still surprised that Price Brothers hasn't announced 12-story residential buildings for this parcel.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0434133 ... a=!3m1!1e3