New Chiefs Stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

I don't actually care for Village West, my preference would actually be JoCo, maybe somewhere western JoCo where there's alot of room so they can build a whole district with it. I think that would be a really cool spot.

How objectionable I personally find that aside, Johnson County residents don't want a stadium in their backyard. They much prefer it out of sight out of mind. Any site where you could feasibly not have huge resident objection is out in unincorporated JoCo where requisite hwy connectivity doesn't exist. At that point the Chiefs are playing closer to Lawrence than KC which to me seems completely unacceptable and counter productive. Counter productive even to Kansas which would almost surely be underwater with whatever they had to do to get such a thing anyway.

Yeah I don't agree with alot of the things said there. This is starting to sound like you just don't want any stadium in Kansas. Just another stupid border mentality thing.

[FlippantCitizen]

Yeah I don't agree with alot of the things said there. This is starting to sound like you just don't want any stadium in Kansas. Just another stupid border mentality thing.

I've got nothing against KS or JoCo. I grew up there and there is no ill will. I'm not making JoCo or KS out as some kind of boogeyman. Let me give my dad, my aunts, uncles, my sister all of whom are JoCo homeowners a call and see how he would feel about a new Chiefs stadium going in JoCo. I suspect they would be ambivalent to hostile.

[AlkaliAxel]

Yeah I don't agree with alot of the things said there. This is starting to sound like you just don't want any stadium in Kansas. Just another stupid border mentality thing.

I've got nothing against KS or JoCo. I grew up there and there is no ill will. I'm not making JoCo or KS out as some kind of boogeyman. Let me give my dad, my aunts, uncles, my sister all of whom are JoCo homeowners a call and see how he would feel about a new Chiefs stadium going in JoCo. I suspect they would be ambivalent to hostile.

Nobody's gonna care about a stadium going in a rural undeveloped area outside of the Overland Park city limits. It also could easily still go to Village West. There's options. I'm from there too, and I don't see the big deal.

[FlippantCitizen]

Nobody's gonna care about a stadium going in a rural undeveloped area outside of the Overland Park city limits. It also could easily still go to Village West. There's options. I'm from there too, and I don't see the big deal.

Maybe not if it's sufficiently far out. I just think a western JoCo location not near at least two major highways is dipping our toes into fantasy. Anywhere in JoCo with the proper connectivity would incite backlash and I'm against Village West for the reasons I already laid out which basically boils down to future transit possibilities for TSC and the fact that it's abandonment would not be net positive for the areas surrounding it anyway.

[kas1]

I don't understand why you guys think that Kansas would want to pay for a new stadium rather than continue to let others pay for it. My understanding has always been that cities lose a bunch of money building stadiums because the teams are able to successfully extort them with threats of leaving. They're an amenity, not a revenue source. I also don't understand why so many people act as if stadiums have expiration dates and simply must be replaced once they reach a certain age. Both stadiums at TSC are rated above average in their leagues. What would new stadiums offer which couldn't be done more cheaply by upgrading the existing ones? Keeping in mind the limited funding available in small markets and the high costs for even an entry-level stadium.

[FlippantCitizen]

I don't understand why you guys think that Kansas would want to pay for a new stadium rather than continue to let others pay for it. My understanding has always been that cities lose a bunch of money building stadiums because the teams are able to successfully extort them with threats of leaving. They're an amenity, not a revenue source. I also don't understand why so many people act as if stadiums have expiration dates and simply must be replaced once they reach a certain age. Both stadiums at TSC are rated above average in their leagues. What would new stadiums offer which couldn't be done more cheaply by upgrading the existing ones? Keeping in mind the limited funding available in small markets and the high costs for even an entry-level stadium.

Agree with all of that. Especially the "expiration date" thing which irks me and I didn't get into. Thinking the chiefs will demand a completely new stadium when they already have by all standards an exceptional one is in itself a leap. Why would Kansas want to get off the free ride it's on? Doesn't make sense to me either.

[normalthings]

IMHO:

1. There are a lot of baseball stadiums in better locations and with better designs.
2. There are few football stadiums with better locations, many of those in good locations come at the expense of the surrounding neighborhoods. There are not many better-designed stadiums for non-suite fans.

Since Kansas literally does not care about sprawl, parking lots, ruined neighborhoods, etc. they'd be the perfect place for an inactive NFL stadium!

I'm saying there is isn't a corresponding improvement in the experience or revenue for a complete new build in KS vs a modest renovation in MO

Continuing to think a renovation is most likely..... What do people think will get added? I could see the addition of a northern premium seating box

[AlkaliAxel]

To all three comments, I'll say it again (as we drift off the premise here)...how is KC or Missouri paying for it after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

Better yet, how could they outbid Kansas for the Chiefs right after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

[normalthings]

To all three comments, I'll say it again (as we drift off the premise here)...how is KC or Missouri paying for it after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

Better yet, how could they outbid Kansas for the Chiefs right after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

renew the stadium tax. new royals stadium privately financed in a TIF district

[WoodDraw]

To all three comments, I'll say it again (as we drift off the premise here)...how is KC or Missouri paying for it after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

Better yet, how could they outbid Kansas for the Chiefs right after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

renew the stadium tax. new royals stadium privately financed in a TIF district

Yep.

I don't get why people won't listen to me when I say the chiefs are happy.

The reality is that KC isn't a destination football ground. You're never going to get bowl games, Superbowls, blah.

They have massive amounts of land that they can do what they please with (parking revenue and popups) and get a few millions to make renovations every decades.

They'll want something, but we aren't la or Dallas. Come on.

[AlkaliAxel]

To all three comments, I'll say it again (as we drift off the premise here)...how is KC or Missouri paying for it after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

Better yet, how could they outbid Kansas for the Chiefs right after they just broke the bank for the Royals?

renew the stadium tax. new royals stadium privately financed in a TIF district

Yep.

I don't get why people won't listen to me when I say the chiefs are happy.

The reality is that KC isn't a destination football ground. You're never going to get bowl games, Superbowls, blah.

They have massive amounts of land that they can do what they please with (parking revenue and popups) and get a few millions to make renovations every decades.

They'll want something, but we aren't la or Dallas. Come on.

I believe the Chiefs are currently happy. Tyreek Hill was also happy with his playing situation too, but when push came to shove he took the money and left and so will most anyone.

Every indication has pointed to the Royals wanting tax dollars- not privately financed. That’s probably a last resort option?

1. I think we could get the Big 12 football championship back here now that Big 12 is reshuffling

2. We could get alot of games here if we paid up and got a roof. I don’t think guys realize how much shit Indianapolis gets and it’s literally the more boring mid-size city in America. And they literally get soooo much stuff.

[phuqueue]

I don't understand what a greenfield in western JoCo is supposed to offer that the TSC doesn't. If the team wants to build some kind of fan experience/entertainment district, they have plenty of space to do it in the Kauffman footprint, assuming the Royals really do move downtown. I do understand that the TSC is "a giant piece of shit relic from the 60s," but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, given that there appears to be broad agreement in this thread that a football stadium does not belong downtown and that the hypothetical future TSC would be significantly transformed from what it is today anyway. It's also confusing to me why anybody on an urban development website would advocate for new sprawl in the exurban fringes in lieu of infill redevelopment, especially in light of the advantages TSC offers that have already been highlighted in this thread (closer to downtown, existing transportation infrastructure, opportunities to hook into public transit, etc).

[GRID]

I don't understand what a greenfield in western JoCo is supposed to offer that the TSC doesn't. If the team wants to build some kind of fan experience/entertainment district, they have plenty of space to do it in the Kauffman footprint, assuming the Royals really do move downtown. I do understand that the TSC is "a giant piece of shit relic from the 60s," but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, given that there appears to be broad agreement in this thread that a football stadium does not belong downtown and that the hypothetical future TSC would be significantly transformed from what it is today anyway. It's also confusing to me why anybody on an urban development website would advocate for new sprawl in the exurban fringes in lieu of infill redevelopment, especially in light of the advantages TSC offers that have already been highlighted in this thread (closer to downtown, existing transportation infrastructure, opportunities to hook into public transit, etc).

Perfectly said.

Anybody that thinks a football stadium works as a centerpiece for a bunch of retail and other urban development needs to go back to urban planning school or at the very least look at nearly every single large stadium in the world and how the areas around them are used. Sure there are some cases where retail is FORCED next to a stadium and heavily subsidized, but in general, it just does not work.

Moving the football stadium away from the TSC especially to yet another far flung greenfield development would be probably one of the dumbest things KC could do right now when there are so many other things the region could throw money at. I mean at least the TSC is a possible transit connection to downtown KC in the future. Anybody that thinks KC would be better off with its largest stadium on the fringes of JoCo has lost their mind.

[Rusty Irish]

Can someone explain to me the likelihood and also possible construction timeline and cost of a streetcar line out to TSC?

[normalthings]

Can someone explain to me the likelihood and also possible construction timeline and cost of a streetcar line out to TSC?

It’s being actively studied today, timeline could be anywhere from 7 to 15 years away.

[AlkaliAxel]

The discussion is centered around where the Chiefs will want to take a deal to go, not what’s the best for the city. I think Kansas will pay to have the Chiefs.

I do care about the surroundings of the Chiefs. Having retail would help get events. The biggest negative for Chiefs in Kansas is they’re too stupid about transit over there. Biggest positive is that it’s much nicer surroundings and amenities.

[FlippantCitizen]

The discussion is centered around where the Chiefs will want to take a deal to go, not what’s the best for the city. I think Kansas will pay to have the Chiefs.

I do care about the surroundings of the Chiefs. Having retail would help get events. The biggest negative for Chiefs in Kansas is they’re too stupid about transit over there. Biggest positive is that it’s much nicer surroundings and amenities.

The thread is called New Chiefs stadium. Your premise is that Kansas will try to steal the Chiefs with some kind of grand billion dollar offer to build a dome in western JoCo or WyCo. While I agree that KS might produce some kind of offer, it will lack in real competitiveness and seriousness. It will stir up fighting and angst but MO will have a lot of bullets left to fire even after the Royals question is settled especially if it gets funded the way I think it will. The Chiefs getting full rein of TSC and several hundred million dollars for updates every 20-25 years is a pretty strong reason to stay put. I tried to indulge your argument by setting some of that skepticism aside and lay out some other reasons it would be a bad thing for the metro. I don’t think that is outside the scope of the conversation. This is not an anti-Kansas thing either. Kansas putting up a billion dollars on the pipe dream of landing a super bowl or a college bowl game is foolish and just because you want us to host one does not make it a smart move for the Chiefs or Kansas. It would be a historic boondoggle. The Kansas side of the metro already gets all the advantages of having an NFL team nearby and none of the burden, that used to be a common point I heard both from MO and KS folks last time money had to be injected into Arrowhead. They were coming at it from different perspectives obviously. I don’t see any proposal to change that being serious. This is one of those things where time will tell who is right.

[AlkaliAxel]

Where do you people keep getting this idea that it’s “a pipe dream” to get a Super Bowl or a college bowl game? If you get a roof it’s a done deal in like ten seconds. I haven’t looked into a bowl game (although I don’t think it would be incredibly hard) and they gave the Super Bowl to Indy & MPLS recently. We literally just need a roof. Instead of researching these facts some of you just instinctively fall into the “wE cAnT hAvE tHaT” mindset

[Rusty Irish]

The Bills stadium deal today goes against the grain though of a lot of recent stadium deals in the US and its essentially what staying at TSC would be. They take two paths more or less now.

1) In Downtown/existing built up areas - Falcons, Vikings, Raiders, Detroit Pistons etc
2) Built alongside additional development - Many Cordish projects, Battery Park, Titletown, Patriot Place etc. Other smaller markets are doing this around their teams. Milwaukee, Sacramento, Columbus, Jacksonville. Memphis moved their Arena right onto Beale Street.

Stadiums in themselves aren't a game changer, but if they are done right they can actually be a catalyst and contributor to regeneration and further development. When they are cut off by expressways and surface parking lots that prevents spin off development and why a lot of the older stadium proposals of the 60s and 70s were such terrible deals for tax payers. They're still crap now but they're more palatable when there is associated development to activate these areas year round or when existing business is likely to heavily benefit from their presence and energy. TSC gives no reason for people to hang around or to visit outwith gamedays - the local economy around the place barely benefits a lick. If the Royals get the glitzy Downtown stadium I don't know how the Chiefs will be happy with a bare bones renovation at TSC. I don't think we should either.

For KS it should ultimately come down to one thing. Vanity "oh look at us we have an NFL team" shouldn't really come into it. Thats exactly what Virginia is trying to do with the Redskins and I don't doubt that it could happen here too. Thats what Oklahoma did when they got the Thunder. It should really be, is another 60-70k people 10-12 weekends a year in the fall coming out to Village West or wherever it is going to be worth putting up hundreds of millions possibly more of public money?

850m the NYS public has just been ripped off for a no frills open air stadium in suburban Buffalo thats essentially the same or worse than Arrowhead - its smaller and further from the nearest highways.

If we copy them then I'd be incredibly disappointed. I'd like to see it act as economic driver of some sort even if it can't be centrally placed.

[FlippantCitizen]

If a total 1.5 billion got invested in a shiny new dome and gameday village anywhere in the metro and a majority of current hotel proposals go forawrd then no... it would not be a complete pipe dream to land a superbowl. The pipe dream is thinking that would be a smart investment.