OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

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kboish
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by kboish »

This was literally all covered back when this district was formed. They even link to there own 2017 article within this article. I don't get why they are bringing this up again. (i mean, i know why...clicks. But honestly, it is a complete retread of stuff that was well publicized and discussed before the TDD was formed)
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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by normalthings »

kboish wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:44 pm This was literally all covered back when this district was formed. They even link to there own 2017 article within this article. I don't get why they are bringing this up again. (i mean, i know why...clicks. But honestly, it is a complete retread of stuff that was well publicized and discussed before the TDD was formed)
They are trying to lay the groundwork for anti-E/W and NKC extension efforts. E/W is going to end up highly politicized.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

normalthings wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:06 pm
kboish wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:44 pm This was literally all covered back when this district was formed. They even link to there own 2017 article within this article. I don't get why they are bringing this up again. (i mean, i know why...clicks. But honestly, it is a complete retread of stuff that was well publicized and discussed before the TDD was formed)
They are trying to lay the groundwork for anti-E/W and NKC extension efforts. E/W is going to end up highly politicized.
I mean the news paper is dead, how else are they to generate ad revenue?
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:06 pm
kboish wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:44 pm This was literally all covered back when this district was formed. They even link to there own 2017 article within this article. I don't get why they are bringing this up again. (i mean, i know why...clicks. But honestly, it is a complete retread of stuff that was well publicized and discussed before the TDD was formed)
They are trying to lay the groundwork for anti-E/W and NKC extension efforts. E/W is going to end up highly politicized.
Gonna be harder for them to make that case after Main St. extension.

Their chance to kill the streetcar was back in 2014 before anyone knew how good it was, and when the haters could still make up imaginary world where the streetcar is a horrific thing.

It's like playing the Chiefs. Once the Chiefs get a lead...boy it's hard to come back and win the game at that point. You get one chance to stop it.
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by DaveKCMO »

grovester wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:12 pm
Highlander wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:22 pm Anyone with a Star subscription want to summarize the article today: "Some of richest Kansas Citian's live in the street car zone. Why aren't they paying for it"? At the surface, it sounds like the typical create-controversy-where-there-isn't-any article that led me to drop my Star subscription.
You nailed it.

I was disappointed by how many amplified it on social media.
Doesn't really bother me the same story surfaced again because it reminds people who's paying and who's not, and that the whole thing is based on value capture and walkability. And it's not like there's anyone left at the Star who reported it in the first place.
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chrizow
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by chrizow »

OMG extend it to Meyer, at least! I could be wrong but anecdotally it seems like there has been a lot of turnover in BKS north of 63rd (younger residents replacing older) so maybe it would be supported....not sure the tax capture would be sufficient since it's mostly single-family residences.
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

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chrizow wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:53 am not sure the tax capture would be sufficient since it's mostly single-family residences.
It's not. Already been looked at. But at least that's universal: You can't extend in any direction from river to UMKC without something broader to supplement the capital and operating cost. That said, I would expect value capture to continue playing a role (and generating the same level of controversy).
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:21 am
chrizow wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:53 am not sure the tax capture would be sufficient since it's mostly single-family residences.
It's not. Already been looked at. But at least that's universal: You can't extend in any direction from river to UMKC without something broader to supplement the capital and operating cost. That said, I would expect value capture to continue playing a role (and generating the same level of controversy).
How likely is it that a capital surplus exists from the TDD? Wasn’t that what helped KCSA to get the extra two streetcars from the initial segment? Or was it planned into the budget before then?
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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by normalthings »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:58 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:21 am
chrizow wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:53 am not sure the tax capture would be sufficient since it's mostly single-family residences.
It's not. Already been looked at. But at least that's universal: You can't extend in any direction from river to UMKC without something broader to supplement the capital and operating cost. That said, I would expect value capture to continue playing a role (and generating the same level of controversy).
How likely is it that a capital surplus exists from the TDD? Wasn’t that what helped KCSA to get the extra two streetcars from the initial segment? Or was it planned into the budget before then?
On one hand, inflation will make the value of debt worth "less" quicker. On the other hand, on-going operations & maintenance for transit tend to outpace inflation. At current inflation rates, 2029 prices will be double today's.

With the spike in SFH prices, I would be interested to see if the the funding gap for a south extension has narrowed at all once reassessment occurs. A cursory look at Zillow shows Zestimates (not always accurate) are up 2-3 times vs 2014. Is anyone familiar with the assessment process?
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im2kull
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by im2kull »

normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:39 pm At current inflation rates, 2029 prices will be double today's.
2029 prices will be much, much higher because 1. Inflation in the US is greater than anyone wants to admit, and has been for the last few decades.. and 2. inflation is compounded. In fact, it's so bad that McDonalds created the "McDouble" in 2008 response to inflation. They decided to raise the price on a Double Cheeseburger from $1 to $1.35 (A 35% increase) but didn't want to leave the "Dollar Menu" void of a burger, so they created a Double Cheeseburger with one less slice of cheese and called it a "McDouble".. priced at $1. The cost of a McDouble has now risen to $3.36 in MO...above $5 elsewhere.

True inflation is tracked by the prices of the goods you purchase.. not the government sponsored BLS index. It's easy to see just how bad inflation is when considering those things and disregarding the BLS "statistics". A few good examples;

(In KCMO prices)
1. McDonalds Double Cheeseburger - 337% increase
2008 - $1
2022 - $4.37

2. McDonalds McDouble - 236% increase
2008 - $1
2022 - $3.36

3. McDonalds Apple Crisp - 473% increase
2008 - $0.40
2022 - $2.29

4. Autozone DLG 75 battery - 155% increase
2012 - $83
2022 - $212

5. Autozone DLG H8 battery - 150% increase
2012 - $93
2022 - $232


Considering that last year I was buying cans of chili beans for 3.5c/ounce, and this year they're 6.5c/ounce.. I'm guessing that by 2029 prices will have at least quadrupled.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Rag's gotten so boring this month we're discussing a can of beans
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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

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Mainstreet Extension Updates:
  • City will purchase 2 additional streetcars.
  • Bond funding for project phase 2 decreased in part due to ARP grant
  • Extra $3 million allotted for additional design services, no other info given
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

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normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:58 pm Mainstreet Extension Updates:
  • City will purchase 2 additional streetcars.
  • Bond funding for project phase 2 decreased in part due to ARP grant
  • Extra $3 million allotted for additional design services, no other info given
Is this in addition to the # of streetcars that was initially slated for the extension? Or did the downsize the number of new cars they’re receiving?
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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:58 pm Mainstreet Extension Updates:
  • City will purchase 2 additional streetcars.
  • Bond funding for project phase 2 decreased in part due to ARP grant
  • Extra $3 million allotted for additional design services, no other info given
Is this in addition to the # of streetcars that was initially slated for the extension? Or did the downsize the number of new cars they’re receiving?
We will have 8 new streetcars coming instead of the 6 previously planned.

6 ordered + intend to exercise options for an additional 2. IRRC there are 10? total options. Funding for 2 more vehicles was assigned in an approved ordinance.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:58 pm Mainstreet Extension Updates:
  • City will purchase 2 additional streetcars.
  • Bond funding for project phase 2 decreased in part due to ARP grant
  • Extra $3 million allotted for additional design services, no other info given
Is this in addition to the # of streetcars that was initially slated for the extension? Or did the downsize the number of new cars they’re receiving?
We will have 8 new streetcars coming instead of the 6 previously planned.

6 ordered + intend to exercise options for an additional 2. IRRC there are 10? total options. Funding for 2 more vehicles was assigned in an approved ordinance.
Gotcha. Good to see KCSA has a positive outlook on ridership going forward, the numbers the last year made a long term ridership recovery seem shakier
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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by normalthings »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:22 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm

Is this in addition to the # of streetcars that was initially slated for the extension? Or did the downsize the number of new cars they’re receiving?
We will have 8 new streetcars coming instead of the 6 previously planned.

6 ordered + intend to exercise options for an additional 2. IRRC there are 10? total options. Funding for 2 more vehicles was assigned in an approved ordinance.
Gotcha. Good to see KCSA has a positive outlook on ridership going forward, the numbers the last year made a long term ridership recovery seem shakier
We know that extending the River Front past the east edge was expected to require extra vehicles. If money exists under main street extension, use it to buy up vehicles making future extensions "cheaper."
Last edited by normalthings on Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:29 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:22 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm

We will have 8 new streetcars coming instead of the 6 previously planned.

6 ordered + intend to exercise options for an additional 2. IRRC there are 10? total options. Funding for 2 more vehicles was assigned in an approved ordinance.
Gotcha. Good to see KCSA has a positive outlook on ridership going forward, the numbers the last year made a long term ridership recovery seem shakier
We know that extending the River Front past the east edge was expected to require extra vehicles. If money exists under main street extension, use it to buy up vehicles making future extensions "cheaper."
Definitely changes the dynamic for expansion if you only need a couple SC for an expansion vs a whole set of 8-10
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beautyfromashes
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by beautyfromashes »

I'm sure it's been talked about before, but with the new extension, what is the plan for when cars are broken down or a problem with one section of track? Will it stall out the whole system? Crossover track to go around? A much larger system will have more likelihood of disruption.
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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:18 pm I'm sure it's been talked about before, but with the new extension, what is the plan for when cars are broken down or a problem with one section of track? Will it stall out the whole system? Crossover track to go around? A much larger system will have more likelihood of disruption.
IIRC, 2 cross over tracks. System designed so that a high frequency Union Station and North service can be run during events. I am not sure about running vehicles the "opposite way". I guess that is an advantage of dedicated center running

NKC must be center running. East/West must be center running. Even if we never expand outside the core, center running is better.
Last edited by normalthings on Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:58 pm Mainstreet Extension Updates:
  • City will purchase 2 additional streetcars.
  • Bond funding for project phase 2 decreased in part due to ARP grant
  • Extra $3 million allotted for additional design services, no other info given
Is this in addition to the # of streetcars that was initially slated for the extension? Or did the downsize the number of new cars they’re receiving?
We will have 8 new streetcars coming instead of the 6 previously planned.

6 ordered + intend to exercise options for an additional 2. IRRC there are 10? total options. Funding for 2 more vehicles was assigned in an approved ordinance.
Good. Huge actually.

Streetcars biggest issue is the frequency/waiting between stops. It's like 15 minutes to wait for a streetcar. That needs to be like 7 minutes tops.
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