Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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GRID
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
That's all fine, I just want to maintain the Spanish design and feel is my point.

I still think we really need to do something with that river-walk other. Let's not be like that guy in the thread who gives a zillion excuses why it's a problem and just find a way to make something happen.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Riverite »

FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
That’s disappointing, would be nice to see even if its at the part where it’s like 20 feet below the parkway
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
I say just open up the parcels for it and let the owners take their own risk with it. It's not gonna get any worse than it is now. We have this creek that's perfectly adjacent to the Plaza and we do absolutely nothing. Such a waste.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Goonies »

GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
I'm proposing not making the whole city look like 1 giant mixed used development. You guys are quickly turning KC into 135th Street.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:09 pm
FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
I say just open up the parcels for it and let the owners take their own risk with it. It's not gonna get any worse than it is now. We have this creek that's perfectly adjacent to the Plaza and we do absolutely nothing. Such a waste.
I think you need to research this a little better. Hydrology (and the issue of flooding) is a subject I actually know something about. Any permanent structures on the banks of Brush Creek would be actually below the floodplain on the actual banks of the channel. Nobody would ever loan you any money to build anything there. The "risk" you would take to do that would also put the rest of the plaza at risk because these structures would be impeding the flow of water down stream causing a potential back up onto the plaza (that's exactly what happened in 1977 when a couple of bridges then had supports that were perpendicular rather than parallel to flow).

If you wanted to put any structures that low in the Brush Creek channel, they would have to be a temporary structure that could be removed when the risk of thunderstorms was high. That would be doable and has been done at small scales.

But there simply are not going to engineering quick fixes to the problem. Storing flood water in the headwaters doesn't work because that area is all residential now. You'd have to go back in time and build a dam where Mission Hills is now to accomplish that and no homes could be built upstream (see George Bush Park in Houston) and much of Fairway, Prairie Village and Mission Hills would not exist today. Diverting the water doesn't work either because there's no where to divert it; high valley walls exist to the south and north of the plaza. Where would you divert it to? The physical environment just doesn't allow any cost effective ways of making the actual banks of Brush Creek more palatable to business. The Plaza is already on a floodplain and KC has invested a huge amount to make that work but unfortunately the same cannot be done to the actual channel of the Creek.


https://www.google.com/search?q=1977+pl ... j0fP_lBg_M
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

Goonies wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm
GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
I'm proposing not making the whole city look like 1 giant mixed used development. You guys are quickly turning KC into 135th Street.
^Urban areas have traditionally been mostly mixed use. Suburbs are traditionally distinct residential vs commercial districts. The Plaza can and should be both destination shopping and urban neighborhood at this point. There are very few truly pedestrian scale full circle urban living areas in KC and Plaza is pretty close but not quite there.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by GRID »

Goonies wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm
GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
I'm proposing not making the whole city look like 1 giant mixed used development. You guys are quickly turning KC into 135th Street.
I'm not sure I get what you are saying. There is very little "mixed use" in KC's suburbs. It's all called mixed use but it's no different than all the rest of the sprawl out there, it's just developed by one developer and called mixed use.

Urban areas are mixed use by nature. If you walk a block in most thriving cities, you will most likely walk past restaurants, retail, residential and office space all within that same block. And it looks nothing like 135th Street.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by empires228 »

FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
Not to mention that the creek stinks when water gets low or after a big rain event.

Does anybody know what’s actually going on with Nordstrom? For a store that’s supposed to open next year, they sure haven’t touched anything since Fall 2019 and now we’re in the middle of another Covid variant that’s going to make it hard to start construction for at least another month, weather pending as well.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Highlander wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:35 pm I agree we should have a river walk
Look, perhaps we don't have to go to the bottom of that canal to place the restaurants. Maybe we can carve out something there. That actually might look even cooler if the river was running hard after a storm next to dining. I'm just saying, we need to get *creative* with it and look at some options. I stand by the statement I think we can get something done here. And it could be glorious.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by LCDSI »

My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
I noticed it's not scheduled to open until late in 2023. What has been proposed is a substantial building; 2 floors and 122,000 sq ft. Not sure how long that would take to construct but I would guess at least a year. They will need to start relatively soon if they are committed to that start date.

https://www.nordstrom.com/browse/about/ ... e-openings
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
Uh oh haha.

This whole thread the past week started just because some dude on here claimed Nordstrom was about to fail.

Well shit, we’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole so far we made it to “we’re better off with neighborhood stores than a Nordstrom”…I hope this is a good lesson not to overreact because of an unsubstantiated rumor that a guy said in passing.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by empires228 »

Highlander wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:42 pm
LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
I noticed it's not scheduled to open until late in 2023. What has been proposed is a substantial building; 2 floors and 122,000 sq ft. Not sure how long that would take to construct but I would guess at least a year. They will need to start relatively soon if they are committed to that start date.

https://www.nordstrom.com/browse/about/ ... e-openings
They would have to start very soon, which likely will be impeded into Feb. at the least by Omicron.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Developersanonymous »

tskev wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:13 pm I haven't seen this mentioned, so it's worth putting out there. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but pretty much every tenant on the plaza is a NNN tenant, so they are each responsible for their share of the real estate taxes, insurance, and common area maintenance. I believe Jackson County jacked up "The Plaza" taxes two years ago. The owners were successfully able to fight the county and show that the surrounding plaza properties did not get the same relative increases. However, I believe this past year the county decided to do it again, but they raised everyone's taxes ("The Plaza" and the surrounding plaza properties) so that it would be more difficult to fight. The result is, the tenants that were already paying the highest rents in the metro saw their monthly rent increase by thousands of dollars since the increases were passed through directly to them. I expect many more tenants will be closing their doors soon.

Additionally, the owners paid what they did for The Plaza expecting a certain return on investment. With taxes increasing, they will have to lower the base rent--which they will not want to do easily. I expect that they will eventually sell the thing for a huge loss, but that will probably come after a couple of years of struggling.

Also, I had heard that The Plaza was going to be treating Nordstrom's as a huge loss leader and were giving them practically free rent for 10 years. The plan was that it would attract more foot traffic and other high-end retail. They were saving other spaces for high-end tenants that would move in once Nordstrom's was complete. So, if it is true that Nordstrom's is out, I don't know what the agreement was, but I don't see how the Plaza owners will be able to get the retailer to pay them back.

If I were the owner, at this point I would build a huge residential tower at the Nordstrom's site with first-floor retail, preferably some kind of high-end grocer to compete with Whole Foods over by UMKC (maybe an urban target would make sense as well). I would try to keep as many lux brands on The Plaza as possible, but I think the future of retail is going to be the unique, local type of brands (Made in KC, etc... as well as dining and service options) that are seen as an amenity for residents. I would also replace the garage between the classic cup and Starbucks and build another residential tower over it. I would look at adding a couple of stories on other buildings for more apartments as well and try to keep the Spanish aesthetic going with all new builds.

I know it is sad to see the plaza "decline" but I think there is a path forward where it can thrive. It just needs to be in a completely different direction than where it has been the past couple of decades. It starts with getting rid of the ridiculous "bowl" requirements.
This is not being discussed enough. Likely a little beyond the scope of most peoples understanding of how tenants actually pay rent. People need to know a substantial portion of what tenant's actually pay in rent at the plaza is going to the city and not the owners. The taxes rise to a point where the overall gross rent factor becomes unsustainable for even the best tenants in the world. That is what drives smaller, mom and pop tenants out. not always the ownership forcing above market rents on them. It's the above market real estate taxes the City forces that causes these tenants to either leave or relocate to cheaper spots. Tenants want to be on the plaza but not willing to pay $35 per square foot for real estate taxes.... People think the owners are getting fat and happy collecting rent. WRONG. on the plaza... it's the City collecting the biggest check not ownership.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by CorneliusFB »

the school district collects the biggest portion of taxes (like 275% more than the city) even for the plaza properties.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:22 pm
LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
Uh oh haha.

This whole thread the past week started just because some dude on here claimed Nordstrom was about to fail.

Well shit, we’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole so far we made it to “we’re better off with neighborhood stores than a Nordstrom”…I hope this is a good lesson not to overreact because of an unsubstantiated rumor that a guy said in passing.
1. All rumors by definition are unsubstantiated
2. It's a KC development forum. These things will and should be discussed.
3. I've heard the same rumor and from people well connected enough that it does concern me a little. It wasn't just "said in passing".
4. If true, why haven't they announced it? Probably because (if true) there are some serious negotiations going on between the owners of the Plaza and Nordstrom after the western end of the Plaza was demolished and the existing businesses relocated. A lot was done to accommodate Nordstroms. They cannot just pull out without some consequences.
5. As mentioned before, the window of opportunity to make even a Fall 2023 opening is getting smaller by the day. They will need to start construction very soon. There is no visible activity.
7. Like you, I hope Nordstroms happens on the Plaza but I have my doubts.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by normalthings »

Plaza ownership is exploring other options but for now locked into the contract with Nordstroms.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

But does Nordstrom have to build out the store and still go to the Plaza too?
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