Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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Highlander
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

earthling wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:33 am ^Residential can be added within with Spanish/Moorish motif. It's time. Plaza has offices in 'bowl', why not residential as well. It needs that diversity.
The only offices (high rise) in the "bowl" are on the north side of 47th and west of Broadway (Wornall). They are isolated in once corner of the Plaza and are not found elsewhere.

There are only a few places on the plaza that would OK for accommodating residential floors atop existing buildings. Another floor on the top of the Halls building perhaps and the most obvious place would be the parking lot behind Classic Cup (although I had always hoped that would become a true Plaza with no parking). Putting another floor on any building with an ornate tower or dome would be an architecturally horrific idea. Those buildings have an ambience because the towers stand out against the sky. The number of residents that could be added with such small scale additions would probably be in the few dozens. Certainly not anything of scale. It would add nothing to the activity level of the Plaza at night. As I've said before, there is ample space immediately adjacent to the Plaza to add orders of magnitude more residents. Not sure the benefit is worth the risk to area's ambience.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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Highlander wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:58 am
earthling wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:33 am ^Residential can be added within with Spanish/Moorish motif. It's time. Plaza has offices in 'bowl', why not residential as well. It needs that diversity.
The only offices (high rise) in the "bowl" are on the north side of 47th and west of Broadway (Wornall). They are isolated in once corner of the Plaza and are not found elsewhere.

There are only a few places on the plaza that would OK for accommodating residential floors atop existing buildings. Another floor on the top of the Halls building perhaps and the most obvious place would be the parking lot behind Classic Cup (although I had always hoped that would become a true Plaza with no parking). Putting another floor on any building with an ornate tower or dome would be an architecturally horrific idea. Those buildings have an ambience because the towers stand out against the sky. The number of residents that could be added with such small scale additions would probably be in the few dozens. Certainly not anything of scale. It would add nothing to the activity level of the Plaza at night. As I've said before, there is ample space immediately adjacent to the Plaza to add orders of magnitude more residents. Not sure the benefit is worth the risk to area's ambience.
You make a lot of good points. I just don't see how the plaza can fail. It's the core of a very densely developed area. The types of retail may change and it may go through some periods of high vacancy, but I think it will eventually bounce back. The Streetcar and comeback of Midtown will have a positive effect on the Plaza too. KC is finally getting a proper transit friendly urban corridor to connect its two major urban bookends. Once the streetcar opens, I see the Plaza getting a another wave of development, interest and private investment. It will be fine.

I just hope they do something well thought out for the Nordstrom's site if Nordstrom's does fall through. A Target there is not a terrible idea. Urban Targets tend to be pretty decent looking. They just need to figure out a way to activate the street as much as they can with such a big box. It would be pretty easy to do.

Again, here is the Target near me above this street facing retail. This is a suburban area, so the plaza should be able to do at least something like this.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.98124,- ... 384!8i8192

Then put one like this downtown.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8946737 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

I don't really care what they build but they've gotta mandate that it's Spanish motif design. That's really all anyone cares about.

If you lose that, then you may as well go shop at Town Center.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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^Not crappy/boring/generic, would expect high end with Spanish/Moorish motif with perhaps more towers or don't bother.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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The Target location in Arlington reminds me of that parcel on Madison and Roanoke Parkway that is being developed. The way they extended the building to the V-shaped curb, and put a Target on the second level at that intersection, but you can enter it at grade further up the street. Then there is a larger building above it.

If the Nordstrom's does open on the former Cinemark site, they should maybe put a small Target in that Madison development like they did in Arlington. It's almost the same physical setup.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8947795 ... 384!8i8192

They should put a residential building like this on 46th Terrace behind Barnes and Nobles--on that grassy hillside parcel. But a bit more Spanish-Mediterranean in style.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9809004 ... 384!8i8192

W. 46th Terrace.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0433163 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Goonies wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:41 pm It feels like that's the solution to everything on here by some. Just build boring generic apartments with retail on top lol
Yep. There are a couple people on here who I’ve never seen suggest anything on here other than “mixed use and restaurants”.

Idk how some people are that uncreative. We need more out of the box thinking.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
That's all fine, I just want to maintain the Spanish design and feel is my point.

I still think we really need to do something with that river-walk other. Let's not be like that guy in the thread who gives a zillion excuses why it's a problem and just find a way to make something happen.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
That’s disappointing, would be nice to see even if its at the part where it’s like 20 feet below the parkway
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
I say just open up the parcels for it and let the owners take their own risk with it. It's not gonna get any worse than it is now. We have this creek that's perfectly adjacent to the Plaza and we do absolutely nothing. Such a waste.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:09 pm
FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
I say just open up the parcels for it and let the owners take their own risk with it. It's not gonna get any worse than it is now. We have this creek that's perfectly adjacent to the Plaza and we do absolutely nothing. Such a waste.
I think you need to research this a little better. Hydrology (and the issue of flooding) is a subject I actually know something about. Any permanent structures on the banks of Brush Creek would be actually below the floodplain on the actual banks of the channel. Nobody would ever loan you any money to build anything there. The "risk" you would take to do that would also put the rest of the plaza at risk because these structures would be impeding the flow of water down stream causing a potential back up onto the plaza (that's exactly what happened in 1977 when a couple of bridges then had supports that were perpendicular rather than parallel to flow).

If you wanted to put any structures that low in the Brush Creek channel, they would have to be a temporary structure that could be removed when the risk of thunderstorms was high. That would be doable and has been done at small scales.

But there simply are not going to engineering quick fixes to the problem. Storing flood water in the headwaters doesn't work because that area is all residential now. You'd have to go back in time and build a dam where Mission Hills is now to accomplish that and no homes could be built upstream (see George Bush Park in Houston) and much of Fairway, Prairie Village and Mission Hills would not exist today. Diverting the water doesn't work either because there's no where to divert it; high valley walls exist to the south and north of the plaza. Where would you divert it to? The physical environment just doesn't allow any cost effective ways of making the actual banks of Brush Creek more palatable to business. The Plaza is already on a floodplain and KC has invested a huge amount to make that work but unfortunately the same cannot be done to the actual channel of the Creek.


https://www.google.com/search?q=1977+pl ... j0fP_lBg_M
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

Goonies wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm
GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
I'm proposing not making the whole city look like 1 giant mixed used development. You guys are quickly turning KC into 135th Street.
^Urban areas have traditionally been mostly mixed use. Suburbs are traditionally distinct residential vs commercial districts. The Plaza can and should be both destination shopping and urban neighborhood at this point. There are very few truly pedestrian scale full circle urban living areas in KC and Plaza is pretty close but not quite there.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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Goonies wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm
GRID wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:30 pm What are you proposing that would be better? I mean, the owner of the plaza is conservative and is not going to do much more than a retail building. The people of KC seem to come out of the woodwork when anything dense is proposed in the plaza area.

It's an urban area. What's wrong with sidewalk cafes, retail and residential? That's what makes up thriving neighborhoods. What do you propose?
I'm proposing not making the whole city look like 1 giant mixed used development. You guys are quickly turning KC into 135th Street.
I'm not sure I get what you are saying. There is very little "mixed use" in KC's suburbs. It's all called mixed use but it's no different than all the rest of the sprawl out there, it's just developed by one developer and called mixed use.

Urban areas are mixed use by nature. If you walk a block in most thriving cities, you will most likely walk past restaurants, retail, residential and office space all within that same block. And it looks nothing like 135th Street.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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FangKC wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm The problem with putting buildings and restaurants along Brush Creek is that it's hard to control runoff from the watershed during these "bomb cyclone" deluge-type rain events that have been developing more frequently because of climate change.
Not to mention that the creek stinks when water gets low or after a big rain event.

Does anybody know what’s actually going on with Nordstrom? For a store that’s supposed to open next year, they sure haven’t touched anything since Fall 2019 and now we’re in the middle of another Covid variant that’s going to make it hard to start construction for at least another month, weather pending as well.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Highlander wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:35 pm I agree we should have a river walk
Look, perhaps we don't have to go to the bottom of that canal to place the restaurants. Maybe we can carve out something there. That actually might look even cooler if the river was running hard after a storm next to dining. I'm just saying, we need to get *creative* with it and look at some options. I stand by the statement I think we can get something done here. And it could be glorious.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by LCDSI »

My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
I noticed it's not scheduled to open until late in 2023. What has been proposed is a substantial building; 2 floors and 122,000 sq ft. Not sure how long that would take to construct but I would guess at least a year. They will need to start relatively soon if they are committed to that start date.

https://www.nordstrom.com/browse/about/ ... e-openings
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
Uh oh haha.

This whole thread the past week started just because some dude on here claimed Nordstrom was about to fail.

Well shit, we’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole so far we made it to “we’re better off with neighborhood stores than a Nordstrom”…I hope this is a good lesson not to overreact because of an unsubstantiated rumor that a guy said in passing.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by empires228 »

Highlander wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:42 pm
LCDSI wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm My guess is they are still proceeding with the Nordstrom construction. The Nordstrom website still lists this as happening in 2023 and there doesn't seem to be signs that they are backing out.
I noticed it's not scheduled to open until late in 2023. What has been proposed is a substantial building; 2 floors and 122,000 sq ft. Not sure how long that would take to construct but I would guess at least a year. They will need to start relatively soon if they are committed to that start date.

https://www.nordstrom.com/browse/about/ ... e-openings
They would have to start very soon, which likely will be impeded into Feb. at the least by Omicron.
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