Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
earthling
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

Yeah it's time for Plaza to become true mixed-use involving residential within and drop the single 'shopping center' identity. It can still be welcoming as an urban neighborhood that still has destination shopping.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

One thing about the Plaza I’ve always wished they could do was figure out a way to have a better river walk or Brush Creek, like San Antonio has. Now I know that creek is “full of shit” but maybe if they could clean it up, do a re-design, etc. That sort of amenity would fit well with the Plaza.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:24 pm One thing about the Plaza I’ve always wished they could do was figure out a way to have a better river walk or Brush Creek, like San Antonio has. Now I know that creek is “full of shit” but maybe if they could clean it up, do a re-design, etc. That sort of amenity would fit well with the Plaza.
A portion of the flow of the San Antonio River is diverted into the River Walk area in San Antonio while the main channel of the river bypasses it. During periods of high water, there are floodgates that are closed that keep high water from the San Antonio River from entering the River Walk. You can see the flood gates as green barriers above the left inlet off the river on the link below.

Unfortunately for the Plaza, the entirety of Brush Creek's flow moves through the main channel just north of the Plaza. It's barely more than an ephemeral creek most of the year but during peak runoff the volume of water that it carries can be devastating (which we know through bad experience). The channel is entrenched and unimpeded as much as possible to keep the Plaza from flooding and would not be a good place for businesses during times of peak runoff. Not really sure how a river walk scenario could be engineered on the Plaza.




https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4252449 ... 312!8i6656
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normalthings
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by normalthings »

The 1990s renovation had hopes of creating a San Antonio esque river walk. Maybe there is a way to retain water farther upstream and slowly release through the year?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:17 pm The 1990s renovation had hopes of creating a San Antonio esque river walk. Maybe there is a way to retain water farther upstream and slowly release through the year?
Yes. I've heard about ways to do it. I just think city been focused on downtown so much at the moment it's been bypassed.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:33 pm
normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:17 pm The 1990s renovation had hopes of creating a San Antonio esque river walk. Maybe there is a way to retain water farther upstream and slowly release through the year?
Yes. I've heard about ways to do it. I just think city been focused on downtown so much at the moment it's been bypassed.
is there really much to gain out of doing that? I tend to think not. As other said, there is just as much of an issue with low water as there is high water. There are much better projects to pursue
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:38 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:33 pm
normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:17 pm The 1990s renovation had hopes of creating a San Antonio esque river walk. Maybe there is a way to retain water farther upstream and slowly release through the year?
Yes. I've heard about ways to do it. I just think city been focused on downtown so much at the moment it's been bypassed.
is there really much to gain out of doing that? I tend to think not. As other said, there is just as much of an issue with low water as there is high water. There are much better projects to pursue
It depends what the design is. What are they doing right now to worry about flooding now? There are probably simple ways to get around it.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by dukuboy1 »

They had grand plans for sure and improved the whole brush creek area from the Plaza all the way over to 71 HWY. They did a nice job and it looks good. However the kicker is that the storm sewers and some other waste water flow into the creek. The 1880's-1900 era sewage system that is most of KC was setup to dump into the creek, as a lot of cities did back then. Plus the Plaza was not the big deal it is today. But after they built and designed it they found that the water coming in was still not good and no easy fixes. If they could fix that perhaps it would get more use.

The water flow through it is hit or miss as mentioned, and it tends to gather a lot of trash from the roads surrounding above it. Stuff blow down in and stays there. They would need to solve a lot of issues like that. Plus the access to sidewalks and such that are present are not easy to notice and I think the access by design was limited. Maybe they can do something if they want but it has built a reputation since as "Flush Creek" and that PR has now spanned a generation. Going to take a lot of work; environmental, Physical, and PR to make it into something more.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

dukuboy1 wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:06 pm They had grand plans for sure and improved the whole brush creek area from the Plaza all the way over to 71 HWY. They did a nice job and it looks good. However the kicker is that the storm sewers and some other waste water flow into the creek. The 1880's-1900 era sewage system that is most of KC was setup to dump into the creek, as a lot of cities did back then. Plus the Plaza was not the big deal it is today. But after they built and designed it they found that the water coming in was still not good and no easy fixes. If they could fix that perhaps it would get more use.

The water flow through it is hit or miss as mentioned, and it tends to gather a lot of trash from the roads surrounding above it. Stuff blow down in and stays there. They would need to solve a lot of issues like that. Plus the access to sidewalks and such that are present are not easy to notice and I think the access by design was limited. Maybe they can do something if they want but it has built a reputation since as "Flush Creek" and that PR has now spanned a generation. Going to take a lot of work; environmental, Physical, and PR to make it into something more.
I think they did an excellent job with the Brush Creek project. There were not a lot of great options, particularly with flood control issues so emulating the River Walk in San Antonio wasn't ever going to happen regardless of the quality of the water. The Brush Creek channel is designed to keep runoff in the channel and not the floodplain (aka the Plaza) and move it through the area as quickly as possible to alleviate the possibility of a 1977 type flood. It's not a place for permanent structures.

The biggest disappointment is that the creek-side sidewalks are not all that well used. Not sure why that is other than it's not a particularly convenient detour while strolling through The Plaza. You have to cross Ward Parkway and descend the terrace onto the banks and there's not much down there other than a pedestrian/bike trail system. I guess there are gondolas in the summer but not sure how well used they are. As a cyclist, my least favorite aspect of the trail system is that over much of its length, there's just no margin for error. Miscommunicate with a pedestrian when passing and one or both of you could end up in the water. But to make sure the channel was large enough to handle runoff, they made the banks steep sided giving them fewer options for placement of the paths.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by normalthings »

Ive noticed an uptick in trail usage over the years. My issue with it is 0ut of site at night = feels unsafe but you bake in the concrete during the daytime. Adding more share just blocks views onto the trail from above at night. I've wiped out before and it really feels like no one would notice if i had fallen in.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Philacav »

moderne wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?
When downtown was viable for large scale retail, it shared high end retail with the Plaza for years, though there was more of it downtown (at least before ca 1965) and certainly the overall downtown retail and service base was far larger. Then the Plaza wound up becoming a surrogate downtown for a long time and in the minds of more than a few it was/is the central business district. I’m not saying people here in this forum would think that. But it’s not uncommon for people to think of the Plaza as going into the “city” especially if they live in one of the vast suburbs way out.

I think at least in my many years in KC people imagined the Plaza as a high end area even if it wasn’t necessarily just that kind of environment.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by beautyfromashes »

Victoria's Secret and Pink leaving.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by msmith011 »

Here's the KSHB story in Victoria's Secret/Pink: https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/vi ... a-to-close

I have to say, I'm not mad about this. VS/Pink is at just about every basic shopping mall it seems. Plus, this frees up a prime corner spot. I hope these closures point to a rehab of the exterior of that building because as far as appearances go, it's among the most out-of-place and unattractive buildings on the Plaza.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by beautyfromashes »

msmith011 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:23 am Here's the KSHB story in Victoria's Secret/Pink: https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/vi ... a-to-close

I have to say, I'm not mad about this. VS/Pink is at just about every basic shopping mall it seems. Plus, this frees up a prime corner spot. I hope these closures point to a rehab of the exterior of that building because as far as appearances go, it's among the most out-of-place and unattractive buildings on the Plaza.
There sure seem to be a lot of "prime corner spots" on the Plaza. I guess any new additions could take their pick.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by dukuboy1 »

last one left on the Plaza turn out the lights I guess
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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dukuboy1 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:26 am last one left on the Plaza turn out the lights I guess
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by tskev »

I haven't seen this mentioned, so it's worth putting out there. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but pretty much every tenant on the plaza is a NNN tenant, so they are each responsible for their share of the real estate taxes, insurance, and common area maintenance. I believe Jackson County jacked up "The Plaza" taxes two years ago. The owners were successfully able to fight the county and show that the surrounding plaza properties did not get the same relative increases. However, I believe this past year the county decided to do it again, but they raised everyone's taxes ("The Plaza" and the surrounding plaza properties) so that it would be more difficult to fight. The result is, the tenants that were already paying the highest rents in the metro saw their monthly rent increase by thousands of dollars since the increases were passed through directly to them. I expect many more tenants will be closing their doors soon.

Additionally, the owners paid what they did for The Plaza expecting a certain return on investment. With taxes increasing, they will have to lower the base rent--which they will not want to do easily. I expect that they will eventually sell the thing for a huge loss, but that will probably come after a couple of years of struggling.

Also, I had heard that The Plaza was going to be treating Nordstrom's as a huge loss leader and were giving them practically free rent for 10 years. The plan was that it would attract more foot traffic and other high-end retail. They were saving other spaces for high-end tenants that would move in once Nordstrom's was complete. So, if it is true that Nordstrom's is out, I don't know what the agreement was, but I don't see how the Plaza owners will be able to get the retailer to pay them back.

If I were the owner, at this point I would build a huge residential tower at the Nordstrom's site with first-floor retail, preferably some kind of high-end grocer to compete with Whole Foods over by UMKC (maybe an urban target would make sense as well). I would try to keep as many lux brands on The Plaza as possible, but I think the future of retail is going to be the unique, local type of brands (Made in KC, etc... as well as dining and service options) that are seen as an amenity for residents. I would also replace the garage between the classic cup and Starbucks and build another residential tower over it. I would look at adding a couple of stories on other buildings for more apartments as well and try to keep the Spanish aesthetic going with all new builds.

I know it is sad to see the plaza "decline" but I think there is a path forward where it can thrive. It just needs to be in a completely different direction than where it has been the past couple of decades. It starts with getting rid of the ridiculous "bowl" requirements.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

I don’t really see all this as the Plaza “declining” it’s more like “evolving”. Retail is going this way all over the place.

And yes I agree the local KC brand shops are the best ones on the Plaza. I prefer those over alot of the luxury ones.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Midtownkid »

Highlander wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:17 am
earthling wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:28 am The next evolution needs to be more residential within Plaza boundaries, at least on top of existing parking garages. Taubman/Simon have been doing a little better mixed use with some of their properties but not very experienced, generic mall operation is their core biz. Would like to see them sell to a true urban mixed use developer/operator or sell in pieces.
Why does the Plaza need more residential within its boundaries? I don't get it. There are a lot of large condos and apartment complexes around the plaza (literally within a stones throw) with more being built every year. These new residential buildings are built from the ground up as condos and apartments and the numbers of residents they add dwarf the numbers that could be added above the few parking garages on the Plaza that could be retrofitted. Why destroy the aesthetic appeal of the buildings on the Plaza that have ornate towers and domes by adding apartments above the garages in these buildings?

There might be a few buildings like the Saks building that might lend itself to this but I don't see the need. The Plaza is 3 blocks wide, it's easily covered on foot by anyone but the very elderly that live in the adjacent residential areas. Given the vacancy rate on the plaza, I don't see a problem with some neighborhood type services being offered like an upscale food market but not sure large scale residential is a good way forward. There would be massive opposition and anything more than a few units in a few buildings would threaten the uniqueness of the area.
1,000% agree. Don't destroy the plaza's sense of place with some tacked-on crummy looking apartments on top of the beautiful old buildings. The low-density of the inner blocks are part of what makes it feel nice. The tall towers at the corners give it charm. Imagine the towers with dryvit walled apartments looming directly behind (with shitty Juliet balconies and vinyl windows. ugh).

There is nothing physically wrong with the Plaza. In fact, its physical nature is the best thing about it!!

We need a better global and local retail market, some more mixed use (theaters, movies and stage), and some nicely appointed local amenities like a market and drugstore etc. The Plaza once had all there things and it should again.

BTW, even though there are some empty storefronts, I don't get the hype about the Plaza 'going downhill'. It's fine. It's still awesome. Tacking a bunch of crappy apartment units on top of the buildings won't do anything to make it better.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

^Residential can be added within with Spanish/Moorish motif. It's time. Plaza has offices in 'bowl', why not residential as well. It needs that diversity.
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