GRID wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm
I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
agree
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm
Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.
Yeah, something like that would be good. I have feeling that the Chiefs might also want to something like that at the sports complex, maybe even retrofit Kauffman for concerts.
mean wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:03 pm
Tangential to the stadium discussion, but I will be pleasantly surprised if we have any more than the RM->Plaza line done in 20 years. Not like super surprised--it seems well within the bounds of reality--but the amount of NIBYism and negativity about any kind of non-car transportation is still high.
Support for transit/rail has shot up in the last 5 years. Pre-streetcar opening city rail votes garnered 40-45% of the vote consistently. We really don’t have to convince that many more voters to be able to do what was impossible in the past.
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm
I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
When you have 70 acres of development space, you don’t need voter approval. You just need a council approved TIF and Star Bond type program.
The story, location, and land prices, of 18th & Vine make it a lot more attractive than east village for redevelopment.
^You sure about that? The Star hasn't been presenting it that way, including talk of potential need of regional tax to pull it off. But even if somehow can be pulled off with TIF/Bonds only w/no vote, you still likely have a huge risk for city/county (edit: and most politicians will likely be out of office before stadium is compete). The most ideal approach is to spread the risk with a multi-use function w/in same property that is near scale of stadium itself, offsetting the cost/risk of stadium itself.
edit2: Though can see it work w/out vote and low risk if the direct net private investment is indeed significant and city risk from TIF/Bond fairly small.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm
Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.
Wont happen. The city would be better off to quit spending money on vine and let it become light industrial like everything surrounding it.
This won’t happen there are many apartments approved or in the pipeline. Land is being bought up by developers. Office construction in the next year or so.
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm
Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.
Wont happen. The city would be better off to quit spending money on vine and let it become light industrial like everything surrounding it.
Seems like the Vine District is currently in the process of changing from light industrial to urban mixed use. Just in the past five years, things have really started happening there. And you have east crossroads and beacon hill growing too.
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm
Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.
Wont happen. The city would be better off to quit spending money on vine and let it become light industrial like everything surrounding it.
Seems like the Vine District is currently in the process of changing from light industrial to urban mixed use. Just in the past five years, things have really started happening there. And you have east crossroads and beacon hill growing too.
18th has a nice organic thing happening that could transition well over to Vine. Many could warm on Vine if the stadium is almost entirely privately funded with no vote needed AND more importantly the TIF/Bond impact is low risk for city/county, otherwise not optimistic. As mentioned a Cordish-like caliber developer involved would be icing on the cake, especially if they do something tightly integrated/woven into the stadium itself, literally within the stadium - not a dead property outside events. It would be surprising if that happens but definitely a go for Vine if they can attract something of that caliber and pull that off. That would be checking off all the boxes from a risk perspective.
Imagine walking into the Vine library branch unawares it's part of stadium and holy shit, there's a stadium field in view. I had that feeling when first walking into Toronto stadium hotel even though knew it was connected.
Wont happen. The city would be better off to quit spending money on vine and let it become light industrial like everything surrounding it.
WTF
This is your reaction anytime is against mixed used apartments. Youd have every inch of this city be mixed used apartments if you could lol
I think it is more questioning your completely insane and ridiculous position which suggests a total ignorance of the historical and cultural significance of the area in question. That it is surrounded by light industrial isn't some natural order of things to which 18th and Vine itself should be pulled back toward as though being tugged inexorably by mysterious blight gravity. Rather, it's a tragedy, a complete abdication of municipal responsibility toward at least attempting preservation in favor of pandering toward the "progress" of highways and suburbs, which was only partially rectified in the 1990s.
I had been pretty ambivalent about TSC vs EV vs 18th and Vine up until now, but your gross takes have pushed me toward exclusively supporting 18th and Vine with not only a vote if it comes to that, but whatever money I can afford to help fund the official campaign, plus contributing to (or inventing, as needed) a clandestine grassroots inverse of "Save Our Owners" in support of it.
This is your reaction anytime is against mixed used apartments. Youd have every inch of this city be mixed used apartments if you could lol
I think it is more questioning your completely insane and ridiculous position which suggests a total ignorance of the historical and cultural significance of the area in question. That it is surrounded by light industrial isn't some natural order of things to which 18th and Vine itself should be pulled back toward as though being tugged inexorably by mysterious blight gravity. Rather, it's a tragedy, a complete abdication of municipal responsibility toward at least attempting preservation in favor of pandering toward the "progress" of highways and suburbs, which was only partially rectified in the 1990s.
I had been pretty ambivalent about TSC vs EV vs 18th and Vine up until now, but your gross takes have pushed me toward exclusively supporting 18th and Vine with not only a vote if it comes to that, but whatever money I can afford to help fund the official campaign, plus contributing to (or inventing, as needed) a clandestine grassroots inverse of "Save Our Owners" in support of it.
It's just stupid to put a stadium there. Nobody gives a shit about that spot except some KC historians and old political leaders. There's no money in it there. It needs to show it can support itself before it's just flat out given an MLB stadium. Otherwise you end up with the same shit as TSC where you put a stadium (two, actually!) and literally nothing comes up around it. 18 Vine needs to actually build itself up back up as an area first.
TLDR: If 18 Vine hasn't been growing much the past 20 years when a ton of KC urban core has been, then the market is saying that it's not a viable destination at the moment, and it's stupid to waste a hugely valuable asset like an MLB stadium in a spot nobody's going to.
Yeah, the lack of growth is totally natural and isn't in any way subject to historical reality. The market has never been manipulated, and even if it had, those forces would never be felt today. Surely. Right?
mean wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:07 am
Yeah, the lack of growth is totally natural and isn't in any way subject to historical reality. The market has never been manipulated, and even if it had, those forces would never be felt today. Surely. Right?
Get some perspective, dude.
Yeah, the market has been manipulated. It's stupid when they do it most of the time. I've pounded the table and said it more times than anyone on this forum-remove the damn highways so that area can be freed and flourish naturally. But to do the stadium there just to fulfill some politicians dreams? Fuck that.
The entire 18th & Vine "pitch" is 100% emotionally/nostalgic driven and you're telling people to get perspective and "get real" basically. Come on. Lol. I'm all for getting every highway downtown out of the way and giving the area a real shot though.
Would be great for Vine area if nearly all of stadium is privately funded and doesn't have to go to vote (as long as TIF/Bond is low risk for city/county as well). Am starting to envision this now if the case. But don't see this area happening if county or more has to vote on it and add tax burden, probably won't pass for any kind of move.
If wanting to attempt to remediate a historic injustice done to an area is "emotionally/nostalgic driven" then fine, but then isn't not supporting it tantamount to defending and perpetuating historic racist injustice into the future for the continued benefit of the richer and whiter? I mean, even 18V mostly benefits the richer and whiter, at least we can make it look like we are trying to spread things around a bit and possibly actually spread things around a bit in the process.
I imagine a new stadium at 18th and Vine would need more public support and incentives. On the other hand, EV is mostly owned by Van Trust and you can bet they already have plans to develop the area around/within the stadium.
mean wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:56 am
If wanting to attempt to remediate a historic injustice done to an area is "emotionally/nostalgic driven" then fine, but then isn't not supporting it tantamount to defending and perpetuating historic racist injustice into the future for the continued benefit of the richer and whiter? I mean, even 18V mostly benefits the richer and whiter, at least we can make it look like we are trying to spread things around a bit and possibly actually spread things around a bit in the process.
What I’m saying by “emotional/nostalgic” is that I cannot, from a business perspective, see any way in which 18th and Vine is a better business decision than East Village. The only reason you’d pick Vine is if you didn’t care about the money and you’re emotional about it.
-One of them is alot closer to the streetcar
-One of them already has the land banked
-One of them is in a part of town that’s a much safer bet for growth to make money
-One of them would allow for much great spin-off development
-And most importantly, one of them will increase the team value alot more than the other site would
