Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
earthling
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

^Hmm, I'm thinking we will end up with an island there. But agree that if we have an island either location, then outskirts of downtown better, however then don't bother moving at all if that's the case. Go big or don't bother.

I'm seeing some of your points though. Look forward to seeing some concepts.
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Chris Stritzel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Chris Stritzel »

I think the opportunity for a baseball stadium in 18th and Vine makes a lot of sense. If done right, this could become a newer version of Wrigley Ville (just would need streetcar integration). With all the land that normalthings points out as available, plus connections to the entire metro area via two highways (70 and 71), 18th and Vine makes a lot of sense. Efforts continue to be made there to revitalize it and make it vibrant and to a decent amount of success. Throw in a stadium and some other mixed-use developments, and you achieve the goal.

While East Village has a lot of parking now, it is a bit strange once a stadium is built there, at least in my view. The points of the government buildings practically walling off pedestrian activity from power and light to East Village are valid. For a stadium in East Village to work, and promote pedestrian activity on non-game days, it would be better top put the stadium in a neighborhood where considerable investment is taking place in an effort to restore the neighborhood. This goes back to my Wrigley Ville comment.

Old style baseball stadiums in neighborhoods always seem and seemed like strong anchors. Chicago's Wrigley Field has remained a solid anchor for over a century and, as such, has supported new and long established businesses, new apartments, hotel, office space and so on. Now, I dont know about other cities with baseball stadiums in a primarily residential neighborhood but what I can safely assume is that if St. Louis kept/rebuilt Sportmans Park instead of moving downtown, that part of the City would be much better off than it is today. In KC, of the Municipal Stadium remained, was kept up and so on, the surrounding neighborhood would've also been better off than it is today, and probably much more vibrant.

So, the case for an 18th and Vine area baseball stadium makes sense as...
1. It connects to the area's past with baseball and other sports.
2. Available land makes the area an ideal candidate for mixed-use infill that would continue then going revitalization.
3. Access to 70 and 71 connect the area by car to the rest of the area.
4. Development in the East Crossroads and will eventually connect 18th and Vine, leaving only 71 and a bus repair facility in the way.
5. A baseball stadium on game days would help the bars and businesses nearby flourish, and potentially land non-game day patrons who notice these businesses when they come down for a game.
6. A baseball stadium at 18th and Vine surely has more political support than a stadium downtown.
earthling
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

Voter and investor support is the challenge for the location. If it's entirely privately funded, not an issue. Am concerned it will end up in a sea of parking lots in that location, long term. Look forward to seeing some concepts.
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GRID
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:51 pm
earthling wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:46 pm ^Would like to see the plans and how well integrated. Just not seeing it compared to opportunities for EV that could attract more significant investor interest. Go big or don't bother is what I'm thinking so far.
I think more than a few of us here do not understand the argument that 18th and Vine is isolated but East Village isn't? East Village has a whole GOV district between it and the long walk to P&L. The Gov district is always going to be a deadzone and there isn't really a lot of space to redevelop after you build a stadium. maybe 11 acres? 18th Vine has around 70 acres for development (not including the stadium site) bounded by 71 highway, i70, Vine, and the Railroad. Cross 71, which will be easy to do, and you open up many more acres of development space in the East Crossroads.

Even more important, the government already owns the land necessary to build a stadium at 18th Vine. Downtown land is $150 PSF, East Village stadium site would go for $75 million for the land alone. City owns just a little part of the EV stadium site. 18th & Vine can be had for the cost of a land site farther away from downtown (the current facility is old anyways). For the surrounding development district, 18th & Vine land can be bought for $60 PSF. You are going to be able to make a lot more different developments work at that price.
Exactly

I really don't get the hesitation of 18th and Vine. Somewhere in the crossroads is really the best place to put the stadium and east crossroads and 18th and Vine works too. You are close to everything downtown KC there.

A stadium anywhere in the loop is just not a good idea from an urban planning perspective, but east village has to be the worst place. I can see making something work in the north loop between the river market and the cbd, but east village? That's a true island. Landlocked by freeways yet hard to get to by car, mostly government buildings around it and little room to do much else after a stadium. It would be a massive dead zone if a stadium were there.

18th and Vine? Now you have to chance for the stadium to anchor and enhance the next up and coming true urban district of downtown KC. And yet you are still downtown.

The streetcar is NOT going to properly function as it is now for a downtown baseball stadium. If KC builds a downtown stadium and expects a decent amount of people to use transit to get to and from the stadium, then the city will have to build more transit in the future (more streetcar lines independent of Main Street, regional bus routes from the suburbs and even LRT. Build a stadium and that stuff will come later as people see the main street line bog down for game days and see the need for new transit lines to compliment the main street line.

If the stadium goes to 18th and Vine, then a Troost Streetcar route starts to make a lot of sense so does LRT down Truman Road to the east suburbs.
earthling
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

Anyone up for coming up with some crude concepts on a Google SAT map for Vine area?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

Troost streetcar? What?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

18th & Vine is never gonna flourish for one simple reason- highway disconnectivity

Don’t have anything much more to add until that issue is fixed.

P.S.- I do prefer the highrises
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by mean »

I-70/670 / US-71 are right there, I-35 feeds directly into them via the east loop.

I'm not going to presume to divine what the real issue people have with 18th and Vine is, but it's starting to come off like a weird within-the-loop fetish.
earthling
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

Stepping back a few notches the real issue is the price tag and impact to tax payers.

If there's zero impact to tax payers and low risk to city it can go wherever those paying for it wants. But to get taxpayer support it would probably need to be where there is already strong downtown energy many can identify with (Wash Sq Park, 7th/8th/W Main area) - something they see from streetcar line. EV not an ideal choice but at least has a shot to get more private investment engaged for a project nearly larger than the stadium itself reducing taxpayer impact. 18th/Vine probably has the least shot for taxpayer approval as it would appear as just a sideways move to many. And if any of this happens, could increase chances Chiefs move to KS, which many would be even more emotional about.

And if that's not challenging enough, even if stadium were entirely privately funded, many will still be pissed about a downtown location and the perceived parking problem. I don't think they will impact attendance in the end, Royals performance will have more impact.

Overall, if this is going to require taxpayer support, Vine area should not be the first choice. I personally don't mind it as I was a supporter of the initial 18th/Vine City involvement and engaged with the Jazz museum. But also not a good idea to sell a high risk pricey stadium as a 'potential' economic booster on its own as that is a very dangerous message that politicians don't have to worry about when out of office by the time stadium completes.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm Troost streetcar? What?
Just seems like a logical corridor to have a complimenting north south streetcar line.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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earthling wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:39 pm
But to get taxpayer support it would probably need to be where there is already strong downtown energy many can identify with (Wash Sq Park, 7th/8th/W Main area)
Either one of those locations would be amazing. But I don't think either one of those locations has any real chance of happening.

It seems like it has come down to East Village vs Vine District. I don't hate either as both could be successful so long as they don't just plop down a stadium and call it done. This will require a multi block development surrounding the stadium at either of those locations for it to be successful. Otherwise it will still end up just a stadium and parking lots.

I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

GRID wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:08 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm Troost streetcar? What?
Just seems like a logical corridor to have a complimenting north south streetcar line.
Fine idea I just read it as something that has been an idea and this would make it a reality.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by shinatoo »

KCPowercat wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:22 pm
GRID wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:08 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm Troost streetcar? What?
Just seems like a logical corridor to have a complimenting north south streetcar line.
Fine idea I just read it as something that has been an idea and this would make it a reality.
In 20 years there will be streetcars running on Troost.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by mean »

Tangential to the stadium discussion, but I will be pleasantly surprised if we have any more than the RM->Plaza line done in 20 years. Not like super surprised--it seems well within the bounds of reality--but the amount of NIBYism and negativity about any kind of non-car transportation is still high.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

mean wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:03 pm Tangential to the stadium discussion, but I will be pleasantly surprised if we have any more than the RM->Plaza line done in 20 years. Not like super surprised--it seems well within the bounds of reality--but the amount of NIBYism and negativity about any kind of non-car transportation is still high.
I really wonder if we'll see this with the E-W lines that seem to be pushing forward. I almost expect to see them fail if they require any neighborhood vote (or no vote, for that matter) just on the principle that "you can't tell me what's best for my neighborhood!".
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

GRID wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm
I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Sounds like we're trying to put SoDoSoPa out of business with Shi Tpa Town
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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earthling wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:35 am
GRID wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm
I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
I honestly think the aspect of this that you’re looking for is the Chiefs.

I think if the Chiefs present an entertainment plan that they would do *contingent on Kauffman moving* that will move the voters more than anything.
earthling
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

The trick would be not to replicate P&L. Funding a stadium will be a challenge and spreading risk across many investors with mixed functions might be only way to make it work.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.
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