Downtown Baseball Stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

Why does Arrowhead Stadium need an entertainment complex around it?

And if it had one around it, how would it survive in a market already over saturated with retail "destinations".

I really don't see why the Chiefs would ever leave the Sports Complex and I don't think they ever will.

I think these are are the only things that will happen:

A new downtown baseball stadium and a renovated Arrowhead. (The best scenario).

A new downtown baseball stadium and a new NFL stadium at the TSC. (Would be nice, but likely not doable).

Both stadiums renovated at the TSC and hopefully improvements to the TSC a new hotel, some minor retail. (probably most likely).

I think you have to read around the edges. This is the chiefs saying they know that the royals want to move downtown and we want our cut of anything they get.

They're not going to get an entertainment district there, but what they could get is ground level bars for people that don't tailgate.

I don't know what the chiefs want, but I think this points to what they want. They don't make anything other than parking off tailgaters. What if they could bring them inside during cold weather?

It's becoming more clear.

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

If the Chiefs want "entertainment" around their stadium, move to the Legends in Kansas where it's already in place, and use the savings to help build the new coveted indoor stadium they want.

This becomes alot easier for Missouri to do if/when STL gets an expansion team here in a few months from the NFL lawsuit.

[FangKC]

Fang clutches pearls.

[mean]

I appreciate many of the changes to the urban core the past 15 or so years, particularly in and around downtown, but there is something decidedly unappealing about calling it "urban renewal".

[normalthings]

urban revival

[dukuboy1]

If the Royals move downtown, it will be mostly on their own dime, which I think is the plan. Whatever perks the Royals may get, tax free construction materials, etc. The Chiefs will expect the same. Once the Royals are that gives the Chiefs a lot of real estate to work with and something that perhaps the Sports Commission may sell to them outright and be eliminated from any supportive burden. They will get property taxes, sales taxes, etc. like any other business and the Chiefs can develop the land as they see fit. Perhaps that is to build a new stadium, or renovate the old one. Perhaps they get a retractable roof so they can bid on Super Bowls and other major sporting events (where that revenue would go directly to the Chiefs now being the sole owner). They could help fund a transit system to their stadium, develop hotel and other entertainment venues that would create an amazing compliment to the world class tailgating that goes on. I just think if the Royals move it opens up a lot of possibilities for the Chiefs that could be the most unique in all of the NFL. People talk about "Jerry's World" and that is just a stadium. this could be "Clark Land" where you can create something that makes his neighbor in Dallas green with envy. Plus if the NFL is getting their cut from licensing deals, etc. they would be all for it.

[AlkaliAxel]

Not a chance it's on their own dime

I think a good amount of it may be. This ownership group isn't super greedy, Sherman was the only owner out of all 32 last year who kept all the Minor Leaguers and Royals staff on payroll in 2020 and still kept paying them when everything was shut down. I don't think Sherman is specifically looking to gauge every last penny.

[AlkaliAxel]

If the Royals move downtown, it will be mostly on their own dime, which I think is the plan. Whatever perks the Royals may get, tax free construction materials, etc. The Chiefs will expect the same. Once the Royals are that gives the Chiefs a lot of real estate to work with and something that perhaps the Sports Commission may sell to them outright and be eliminated from any supportive burden. They will get property taxes, sales taxes, etc. like any other business and the Chiefs can develop the land as they see fit. Perhaps that is to build a new stadium, or renovate the old one. Perhaps they get a retractable roof so they can bid on Super Bowls and other major sporting events (where that revenue would go directly to the Chiefs now being the sole owner). They could help fund a transit system to their stadium, develop hotel and other entertainment venues that would create an amazing compliment to the world class tailgating that goes on. I just think if the Royals move it opens up a lot of possibilities for the Chiefs that could be the most unique in all of the NFL. People talk about "Jerry's World" and that is just a stadium. this could be "Clark Land" where you can create something that makes his neighbor in Dallas green with envy. Plus if the NFL is getting their cut from licensing deals, etc. they would be all for it.

If the Chiefs want a new stadium, I don't see why they wouldn't go to Kansas at the Legends.

1. They wouldn't have to shell out money for entertainment since it's already there. The hotels, mall, restaurants, everything is there. No need to pay for more of the exact same just to be at TSC for no reason

2. It would get Kansas to start subsidizing and taking their share of the burden on these things instead of making KCMO pay for it while KS gets too enjoy it for free

3. Plus, and I mean no offense, the Legends is a significantly nicer, newer and better place than anything they could do with that dingy TSC area. Nothing they could do at TSC would be able to match Village West. The whole concept of going to Legends in Kansas is a much better idea from every standpoint.

[phuqueue]

Why would it make any difference to the Chiefs what's already at VW? They don't own any of that stuff and aren't entitled to a cut of the money it generates like they would be if they built their own entertainment complex at TSC. If the hypothetical deal on the table is that you can move to Legends to goose other people's bottom lines vs. you can have the whole TSC and do whatever you want to it, I don't see what incentive the Chiefs have to move unless KS offers them tremendously more money than MO (which, maybe they will).

[AlkaliAxel]

Why would it make any difference to the Chiefs what's already at VW? They don't own any of that stuff and aren't entitled to a cut of the money it generates like they would be if they built their own entertainment complex at TSC. If the hypothetical deal on the table is that you can move to Legends to goose other people's bottom lines vs. you can have the whole TSC and do whatever you want to it, I don't see what incentive the Chiefs have to move unless KS offers them tremendously more money than MO (which, maybe they will).

You make some great points and you very well may be right, the Chiefs may just end up staying in Arrowhead for those reasons.

I also want to add a big point to all this- I think the Chiefs coming out and saying they're willing to set up a potential entertainment complex in Kauffman moved the needle alot on the Royals going downtown. I noticed a vivid shift on social media in people excited about a new entertainment complex- not one grift about "but the Royals!!" at all.

There are many people who are so-so as Royals fans but huge Chiefs fans. When it's presented to them as "do you want the Royals to go downtown", they'll say no or they don't care. But when you couple it with "and the Chiefs can use the space to get a new entertainment complex" all of the sudden these people get excited because there's something in it for them. That's what I noticed from people online. I think if they sell this as not just about the Royals, but also about the Chiefs getting to use the space for a village- you'll get much better results. Not everyone gives a shit about the Royals- but they do about the Chiefs. I think if it becomes as much about the Chiefs village, this thing gets done. The Chiefs have alot more sway in this town amongst people.

[WoodDraw]

Worth noting that last time they approved the renovations but didn’t go for the roof.

It’s also worth noting a lot of complexities here that are ongoing that will make this a long process. If kc gets the wc, that will involve some arrowhead upgrades. Stl is also in intense litigation with the nfl that could end up with being promised a team. The state would likely get involved with both.


This will be a very long process.

[AlkaliAxel]

Worth noting that last time they approved the renovations but didn’t go for the roof.

It’s also worth noting a lot of complexities here that are ongoing that will make this a long process. If kc gets the wc, that will involve some arrowhead upgrades. Stl is also in intense litigation with the nfl that could end up with being promised a team. The state would likely get involved with both.


This will be a very long process.

I was thinking about mentioning that lawsuit- if STL gets the team, I think it makes it easier for Chiefs to move to Kansas.

[FangKC]

Forgive me if I appear dumb, but what is the likelihood that the Chiefs wouldn't stay at TSC, or move to Kansas, but instead relocate to St. Louis? It's a bigger media market, and they would likely retain the regional fan base that exists now.

[WoodDraw]

Forgive me if I appear dumb, but what is the likelihood that the Chiefs wouldn't stay at TSC, or move to Kansas, but instead relocate to St. Louis? It's a bigger media market, and they would likely retain the regional fan base that exists now.

Both are beyond unlikely

People here are getting a little over excited. None of these public messages have not gone through pr from both sides and agreed talking statements.

It’s just early days. We’re at the both sides leaking what they want stage.

Don’t read too much into it.

To use sports, they’re moving the goalposts. Royals downtown, chiefs some development and control.

Keep reading between the lines.

[alejandro46]

Forgive me if I appear dumb, but what is the likelihood that the Chiefs wouldn't stay at TSC, or move to Kansas, but instead relocate to St. Louis? It's a bigger media market, and they would likely retain the regional fan base that exists now.

It's a valid question, but I would say that it's possible, but unlikely. There is a transfer fee to move a team, so Hunts would have to pay the rest of the NFL teams part of any increase in the team's increase in value. There are some other markets that could be more enticing to move. Maybe move back to Dallas (Hunts are from there). Jerry Jones (Cowboys owner, rich as hell) would definitely NOT be ok with that. Portland, Orlando, San Antonio all are other large cities without NFL teams, but none of those are as materially larger than KC plus we have a good regional draw. The Hunts are also kind of traditionalists in my opinion, these guys believe in legacy and have a 50+ year long relationship with the Metro. In every comment from Clark and the Chiefs, they have always made it known that keeping the Chiefs in KC is the first priority. If there was a sitution where they could increase the franchiese's value exponentially, of course they would have to consider it, but moving to Stl. wouldn't necessarially be unless somehow St. Louis could fund a brand new stadium - maybe if somehow STL would pay some of any settlement from Stan Kronke to build a new NFL stadium as turnkey for the Chiefs, that would definitely force KC's hand and we would need to match. This is hypothetical, and probably unlikely.

I have been somewhat following the wild lawsuit in St. Louis, as it's very interesting legally what happens there. Kronke is threatening to no longer defend the rest of the NFL owners in the lawsuit. They're all mad because of this and the owners financials are getting dragged into the law suit as well. STL has won some significant preliminary victories as well against the NFL and they are pressing full steam ahead against. If the league could bail themselves out by giving STL another team, that would be a huge win for them but I'm not so sure how much St Louis actually wants that, or it would be in their best interests versus just taking a big pile of Stan Kronke's money. It's also possible that Kronke gets a smaller settlement and get the NFL to give STL an expansion team, as he is threatening to settle the lawsuit just by himself, leaving the rest of the NFL to go to trial later this month.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... itigation/

https://www.kcur.org/news/2021-02-05/st ... the-chiefs

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... s-verdict/

[normalthings]

Forgive me if I appear dumb, but what is the likelihood that the Chiefs wouldn't stay at TSC, or move to Kansas, but instead relocate to St. Louis? It's a bigger media market, and they would likely retain the regional fan base that exists now.

The Chiefs would lose their entire KC fan base if they moved to STL. Sure rural fans would stay.

I don't think STL will get an expansion team. Their stadium still sucks and there isn't much support for upgrades or a new team. They are a few years away from bulldozing it. They will go for a financial payout and use the $$$ on north city and other politically popular initiatives.

[WoodDraw]

The likely scenario is that the royals will move to east village. The second most likely is that they’ll go to vine.

The chiefs will stay and want money.

This will take a decade to play out, with fun stuff to see along the way.

[normalthings]

The likely scenario is that the royals will move to east village. The second most likely is that they’ll go to vine.

The chiefs will stay and want money.

This will take a decade to play out, with fun stuff to see along the way.

City and at least some of the owners want 18th Vine. If they go downtown, it's 18th & Vine.

[AlkaliAxel]

Forgive me if I appear dumb, but what is the likelihood that the Chiefs wouldn't stay at TSC, or move to Kansas, but instead relocate to St. Louis? It's a bigger media market, and they would likely retain the regional fan base that exists now.

The Chiefs would lose their entire KC fan base if they moved to STL. Sure rural fans would stay.

I don't think STL will get an expansion team. Their stadium still sucks and there isn't much support for upgrades or a new team. They are a few years away from bulldozing it. They will go for a financial payout and use the $$$ on north city and other politically popular initiatives.

It’s definitely in our interest that STL doesn’t get a team, right now we’re getting the whole state. We lose it otherwise.

[alejandro46]

The likely scenario is that the royals will move to east village. The second most likely is that they’ll go to vine.

The chiefs will stay and want money.

This will take a decade to play out, with fun stuff to see along the way.

City and at least some of the owners want 18th Vine. If they go downtown, it's 18th & Vine.

Where are you getting this information from? I would say East Village is one or if not the top contender. Undeveloped, closer to Downtown, JE Dunn is right next door, whos CEO is part of ownership group.

[WoodDraw]

The likely scenario is that the royals will move to east village. The second most likely is that they’ll go to vine.

The chiefs will stay and want money.

This will take a decade to play out, with fun stuff to see along the way.

City and at least some of the owners want 18th Vine. If they go downtown, it's 18th & Vine.

I know they do lol.

One day you and I will enjoy a beer over this.

I still think the land bank and connectivity will overcome it, but I’ve been wrong. My thoughts are in this thread though and I’ve gone from east village for sure to mehhh.