Downtown Baseball Stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

If Tampa Bay hadn’t been so damn good this last decade, I’m fairly certain they would’ve moved to one of those cities by now.

[dukuboy1]

90% of the Royals fanbase is suburban/rural> That number seems a bit too high and simplistic. I area we do have a fan base that draws from the region, and once outside of the metro you rural areas. I'd argue that the true rural market, even those right on the edge of the metro maybe come to 1-2 games in person on average. And yes I'm sure you can find someone from Butler, MO or Circleville, KS that has season tickets and goes to all home games. But the fact is those fans that are in the region but in more rural areas typically consume the Royals via TV.

What is your definition of the suburbs. Are talking so far out of the city center type of thing? I mean if we are talking just downtown residents, which is like 20-25K then sure. Just curious on that. I live in Gladstone and I go to the stadiums for games, as well as downtown, midtown, Plaza, Brookside, etc., all the time for dining, entertainment, shopping etc. Even over to JOCO. Where I live it is very easy to go get downtown, and just about anywhere in the metro.

I agree that if they build downtown they build it right and they keep the capacity at 35K. With having the best sports architecture firm in America, heck one of the best in the world, right here in KC I feel pretty confident they would build an amazing park that kept the charms of the K now and take it to a whole new level.

But need a winning team, a team with year over year success (like the Cards) to really make the project viable. I think it can all be done and be a great jewel for the downtown

[DColeKC]

Moving the stadium downtown will absolutely increase attendance regardless if the team is good or bad. Simply based on being walkable to 30,000 people vs a few dozen where it currently sits. There’s literally nothing convenient about the stadiums location at this point.

We will see a downtown stadium, the people with the deep pockets want it bad enough. As for capacity, easy solution. 35k should be the max default capacity but it should be built to allow for 5-10k standing room only or temporary seating expansions. As an owner, I’d much rather create demand by decreasing sellable capacity. This is the trick Sporting uses. This is why some bands play venues smaller then they could, to ensure sell outs and create a sense of being a “hard ticket to get”. Perception drives sales. Certainly don’t need a 40k+ stadium when we have 30 years of data to show us the royals can’t sell that many tickets.

The Royals have always been the “we’ve got some great players coming up” team.

[GRID]

90% of the Royals fanbase is suburban/rural> That number seems a bit too high and simplistic. I area we do have a fan base that draws from the region, and once outside of the metro you rural areas. I'd argue that the true rural market, even those right on the edge of the metro maybe come to 1-2 games in person on average. And yes I'm sure you can find someone from Butler, MO or Circleville, KS that has season tickets and goes to all home games. But the fact is those fans that are in the region but in more rural areas typically consume the Royals via TV.

What is your definition of the suburbs. Are talking so far out of the city center type of thing? I mean if we are talking just downtown residents, which is like 20-25K then sure. Just curious on that. I live in Gladstone and I go to the stadiums for games, as well as downtown, midtown, Plaza, Brookside, etc., all the time for dining, entertainment, shopping etc. Even over to JOCO. Where I live it is very easy to go get downtown, and just about anywhere in the metro.

I agree that if they build downtown they build it right and they keep the capacity at 35K. With having the best sports architecture firm in America, heck one of the best in the world, right here in KC I feel pretty confident they would build an amazing park that kept the charms of the K now and take it to a whole new level.

But need a winning team, a team with year over year success (like the Cards) to really make the project viable. I think it can all be done and be a great jewel for the downtown

There are about 2.5 million people in the KC region that the Royals pull from. So not including people form other cities and further out rural areas, 10% of 2.5 million is about 250k. That sounds about right as far as the portion of KC that is actually urban. It's probably less that that for the people that are actually "culturally" urban meaning people that want to be an a downtown ultra built up urban environment. Most people I know in Hyde Park, Brookside etc, may as well live in Lee's Summit.

And yes, of course, KC has the firms to design an amazing stadium. But they need a budget to do that. Can KC come up with 3/4 billion for a stadium and another few hundred million for just the minimal infrastructure improvements needed? And the Chiefs will need the same. KC has some of the worst general infrastructure and basic services of any large city in the country. It would be pretty hard for the city alone to pull that off. And regional help is not likely from the entire MO side, let alone the entire bistate area. So it will be a low budget stadium somehow funded by a supertiff or something? The numbers don't really work. Maybe I will be proved wrong.

[GRID]

Moving the stadium downtown will absolutely increase attendance regardless if the team is good or bad. Simply based on being walkable to 30,000 people vs a few dozen where it currently sits. There’s literally nothing convenient about the stadiums location at this point.

We will see a downtown stadium, the people with the deep pockets want it bad enough. As for capacity, easy solution. 35k should be the max default capacity but it should be built to allow for 5-10k standing room only or temporary seating expansions. As an owner, I’d much rather create demand by decreasing sellable capacity. This is the trick Sporting uses. This is why some bands play venues smaller then they could, to ensure sell outs and create a sense of being a “hard ticket to get”. Perception drives sales. Certainly don’t need a 40k+ stadium when we have 30 years of data to show us the royals can’t sell that many tickets.

The Royals have always been the “we’ve got some great players coming up” team.

35k is perfect. 25k is silly. Even 18-25k at Kauffman feels pretty full from inside the park because of how the seating bowl is. I have to disagree on the being downtown effecting attendance that much. I'm not saying it would not be great for downtown (if done right). I'm saying you are not going to get that many more people going to games just because it's downtown. It will be a wash at best once the newness wears off because you will lose thousand of people in eastern jackson county that won't go to weekday games as much. But you will at least have way more people downtown when games are going on.

Milwaukee has a stadium like the TSC and they draw way better than KC with worse teams and a smaller market. St Louis has a downtown stadium and yet, I'm sure it's more like 95% of their fans come from suburban or rural areas. Baltimore, Cincy, Clev, Pitts, Minneapolis, SD, all downtown with probably more people within walking and many of those cities have much better regional transit direct to the stadium.

The team will need to be competitive to draw fans and even then, KC doesn't really draw "that" well. So a 35k stadium would be perfect. A properly funded stadium in a great location would be amazing if KC can find the money to do it. But I hope people don't think just moving the team downtown will increase attendance beyond the first year or two. Especially if it's a smaller cheaply built stadium thrown up in an area that is still surrounded by crumbling curbs, sidewalks, bridges and streets when you get one block from the stadium.

[Highlander]

90% of the Royals fanbase is suburban/rural> That number seems a bit too high and simplistic. I area we do have a fan base that draws from the region, and once outside of the metro you rural areas. I'd argue that the true rural market, even those right on the edge of the metro maybe come to 1-2 games in person on average. And yes I'm sure you can find someone from Butler, MO or Circleville, KS that has season tickets and goes to all home games. But the fact is those fans that are in the region but in more rural areas typically consume the Royals via TV.

What is your definition of the suburbs. Are talking so far out of the city center type of thing? I mean if we are talking just downtown residents, which is like 20-25K then sure. Just curious on that. I live in Gladstone and I go to the stadiums for games, as well as downtown, midtown, Plaza, Brookside, etc., all the time for dining, entertainment, shopping etc. Even over to JOCO. Where I live it is very easy to go get downtown, and just about anywhere in the metro.

I agree that if they build downtown they build it right and they keep the capacity at 35K. With having the best sports architecture firm in America, heck one of the best in the world, right here in KC I feel pretty confident they would build an amazing park that kept the charms of the K now and take it to a whole new level.

But need a winning team, a team with year over year success (like the Cards) to really make the project viable. I think it can all be done and be a great jewel for the downtown

And regional help is not likely from the entire MO side, let alone the entire bistate area. So it will be a low budget stadium somehow funded by a supertiff or something? The numbers don't really work. Maybe I will be proved wrong.

Any public funds should come from a bi-state effort. Unfortunately, I don't see Kansans supporting a downtown stadium. I doubt if Lees Summit or Northland voters would either. Residents from those areas would certainly attend games in a downtown stadium if it was built but they will fight the concept if they have a say in the matter. The only reason they might get behind it would be the Royals making an ultimatum about downtown.

The other issue with bi-state (or any regional support) would be every entity would want the stadium in their area. It's a wonder the Union Station bi-state effort was ever approved.

[AlkaliAxel]

Moving the stadium downtown will absolutely increase attendance regardless if the team is good or bad. Simply based on being walkable to 30,000 people vs a few dozen where it currently sits. There’s literally nothing convenient about the stadiums location at this point.

We will see a downtown stadium, the people with the deep pockets want it bad enough. As for capacity, easy solution. 35k should be the max default capacity but it should be built to allow for 5-10k standing room only or temporary seating expansions. As an owner, I’d much rather create demand by decreasing sellable capacity. This is the trick Sporting uses. This is why some bands play venues smaller then they could, to ensure sell outs and create a sense of being a “hard ticket to get”. Perception drives sales. Certainly don’t need a 40k+ stadium when we have 30 years of data to show us the royals can’t sell that many tickets.

The Royals have always been the “we’ve got some great players coming up” team.

This, again, was always the obvious reason to go downtown and as close to the streetcar as possible. The more walkable it is to get to, the more people will come to games regardless of shitty the team is. A big reason of *why* they need to go downtown is because even when they suck they'll still draw.

Also, 90% of people who are going to Royals game are not rural/suburban. It's probably more about 90% urban/suburban going to them. Outside of KC metro in Missouri side they're literally all Cardinals fans. I could actually see the Chiefs as the team getting far more rural fans at their games.

[GRID]

^ you are right. The 400 people stuck on the 6 streetcars which will be stuck in gridlock traffic or moving VERY slow on Main Street before a game will be a game changer.

I'm telling you. The streetcar will be unusable for the most part for a downtown baseball game no matter where the stadium is located unless the city gets cars off Main north of Crown Center.

[Major KC Fan]

I think fans will learn that if they want to use the streetcar to and from a game at a downtown stadium they will need to go early & stay late. An eastbound streetcar or light rail line going by the stadium site would help to spread the crowd out a bit. Most fans will probably be driving downtown so strategic highway & parking should go hand in hand with any downtown stadium plans (and I do support a downtown baseball stadium).

[flyingember]

I think fans will learn that if they want to use the streetcar to and from a game at a downtown stadium they will need to go early & stay late. An eastbound streetcar or light rail line going by the stadium site would help to spread the crowd out a bit. Most fans will probably be driving downtown so strategic highway & parking should go hand in hand with any downtown stadium plans (and I do support a downtown baseball stadium).

Super early. With 6 trains per hour for only 15,000 fans it would take 3 hours to bring 20% by train.

They’ll learn to not rely on transit.

Going three hours early is possible for a 7pm game. Get close and go to a bar so they’re already drunk before the game even begins. The stadium opens 1-1.5 hours early.
Staying three hours after the game gets out, until 1am or later, seems unlikely since they drunk their money away before the game.

I would expect the train is reasonable for maybe 2000 people for any given game.

An event with all day hours where you come and go is more reasonable for transit.

[aknowledgeableperson]

I don't think the stadium will be owned by the city. Tax revenues from a surrounding redevelopment district will pay for the stadium debt issuance.

We clearly do not sell enough seats reguarly to really need a 35,000 seat stadium. Not as bad as Tampa Bay or Miami but we are one of the worst in attendence.

Who would own the stadium them. Serious, who will own it. If being built by tax money via public bonds it will be owned by some public entity especially when talking about that kind of money in this market. And tax revenue from a surrounding redevelopment district that is a laugh. P&L District can't even generate enough revenue to pay for the bonds used to build that area and those bonds didn't need a public vote. You will likely need
$70M to $80 a year in tax revenue to make the bond payments. And that redevelopment would be taking place years after a stadium is built so those bond payments would need some sort of public assistance in the meantime.
Again were is the serious proposal to fund a downtown stadium. That needs to be found first before a site is selected.

[flyingember]

Not necessarily. If the city owns it then the city can get stuck with a stadium it has to maintain. Look at how long Kemper sat mostly unused with the city owing money on it. Look at how the city backed P&L and owed money when the district didn’t earn enough.

We don’t want to own the stadium, the team should.

We want to issue the bonds using incentives from a district but not back them with anything outside the district that the team also owns. At the end of the day, the city should be net zero on the stadium itself and make all its money off the base taxes earned in bars and restaurants not owned by the team, hotel room nights and the like

The only incentives should be to give all stadium and district sales taxes to the team and maybe some parking revenue in city owned garages. If they don’t bring people to games they owe money on the bonds to make up the shortfall, not the city.

This incentivizes a district actually happening because it’s where the team makes it’s money and pays back the bonds.

[normalthings]

If we are building seats to build seats we will either need a stadium tax, a really low budget stadium, or both.

[WoodDraw]

City issued bonds that the city doesn’t back is a new one for me. Sure those would get priced well.

“Even we think this will fail!”

[normalthings]

City issued bonds that the city doesn’t back is a new one for me. Sure those would get priced well.

“Even we think this will fail!”

Iirc City issued bonds for the airport but did not back them. As long as someone trust worthy does it’s not an issue. Expansion of P3 in Missouri is coming next session.

[WoodDraw]

City issued bonds that the city doesn’t back is a new one for me. Sure those would get priced well.

“Even we think this will fail!”

Iirc City issued bonds for the airport but did not back them. As long as someone trust worthy does it’s not an issue. Expansion of P3 in Missouri is coming next session.

I think they’re backed by airport fees right? I assume bond holders find those to be reliable payments.

You could do city issued bonds based off stadium revenue but I’m not sure the Royals would go for that.

I think p3 will be the way the things go. But those bonds are going to have to be backed by something other than hypothetical development.

[normalthings]

City issued bonds that the city doesn’t back is a new one for me. Sure those would get priced well.

“Even we think this will fail!”

Iirc City issued bonds for the airport but did not back them. As long as someone trust worthy does it’s not an issue. Expansion of P3 in Missouri is coming next session.

I think they’re backed by airport fees right? I assume bond holders find those to be reliable payments.

You could do city issued bonds based off stadium revenue but I’m not sure the Royals would go for that.

I think p3 will be the way the things go. But those bonds are going to have to be backed by something other than hypothetical development.

yea, i think we are agreeing or on the same page.

[AlkaliAxel]

^ you are right. The 400 people stuck on the 6 streetcars which will be stuck in gridlock traffic or moving VERY slow on Main Street before a game will be a game changer.

I'm telling you. The streetcar will be unusable for the most part for a downtown baseball game no matter where the stadium is located unless the city gets cars off Main north of Crown Center.

The streetcar point was about people who live within walking distance of it already, which by the time a downtown stadium would be here in 2031 could be alot of reach on the tracks by then. Nobody is saying suburbanites are taking the streetcar to Leawood after a game. And I'm sure they're gonna have more than 6 trams.

[normalthings]

Could see us building streetcar a little farther south and maybe east/west creating a core network then adding a broader LRT system in 20-40 years. Streetcar and bus would feed into the LRT system which would also serve the suburbs. I'm telling you do a 71 Highway LRT station for my 18th Vine baseball stadium!

[alejandro46]

^ you are right. The 400 people stuck on the 6 streetcars which will be stuck in gridlock traffic or moving VERY slow on Main Street before a game will be a game changer.

I'm telling you. The streetcar will be unusable for the most part for a downtown baseball game no matter where the stadium is located unless the city gets cars off Main north of Crown Center.

The streetcar point was about people who live within walking distance of it already, which by the time a downtown stadium would be here in 2031 could be alot of reach on the tracks by then. Nobody is saying suburbanites are taking the streetcar to Leawood after a game. And I'm sure they're gonna have more than 6 trams.

On Gamedays you could limit traffic to main. Streetcar, peds and bikes only. Run double amount of trains.