Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

[alejandro46]

The ride from the suburbs into downtown KC is just not that long of a drive nor is there much of a delay. But if you have to drive to a train, wait for the train, take a train downtown (which will take the same time as a bus on the interstate) and then have to use another form of transit to reach your final destination. The commuter rail is not going to run down Grand and drop you off at your office.

The streetcar is standard gauge. It's not impossible, maybe not probable, that the commuter system could run on streetcar tracks downtown.

Maybe the answer is more bus lanes. Because today the bus goes just as fast as all the cars. When US 71 SB is backed up the bus is too.

The core idea behind rail is it's not stuck in the same traffic, so we need to take busses out of traffic.

The rail would have to be heavily modified and straightened and put into more of a dedicated right of way. Basically it would need to be rebuilt in most places and that point, you may as well just build a whole new rail line down Grand or something.

I-70 and I-35 both have very minimal delays. From Olathe or Blue Springs, the delay is rarely more than 10 minutes. Crashes in KC cause delays, not volume for the most part. I-70 in KC should be 8 lanes simply because it's an urban area and that would allow for one lane for HOV. But building funding to build bus/hov lanes seems like a pipe dream. Although the interstates in StL are much nicer, wider etc than KC, so it can be done.

I just don't see the point. It would be different if KC already had a robust regional bus system and the next step was commuter rail, light rail etc.

Right- I think the best option is to focus on a streetcar as perhaps initially a development tool to bridge walkable activity centers and increase dense development. The center spine was definitely not a waste of money if you consider the billion+$ in development and increase in population along the line. We are already seeing similar effects on Phase 2. There is no reason why similar patterns wouldn't continue to happen perhaps to lesser effect if the system is run East down Linwood and to the RIRR corridor.

[flyingember]

Yes, that's the idea.

Would rail induce demand for transit, increase density with new development, all that stuff, too? Yes, to a large degree. Maybe not downtown level but it would do it.

I picture a limited stop line up N Oak to Barry to Tiffany Springs. Use the same line for accessing parking/rental cars in the airport.

As it is today, it makes no sense. But focused development along the train using existing roads is a lot better than the sprawl development and it looks genius if it works out.

Someone in Clay County has talked about building a brand new development a la College Blvd near Hodge Park. Why not encourage this along N. Oak and transit instead?

[normalthings]

The Linwood streetcar study had an alternative routing that brought it into Crown Center via Gillham rd. That would be idea routing for a line that extended outside of the urban core.


For now, imagine a rail line from Raytown to Truman Sports Complex to VA and then Crown Center. The benefits of this are:

• East Side Rail line which can collect riders from the N/S MAX and Bus lines

• Connects a major employer (VA) to the rail system

• Connects the Truman Sports Complex to the rail system, a popular concept with the average Joe

Suburban buses would feed into the Raytown and TSC stations. Build the line with dedicated ROW and longer and speedier vehicles. As the county grows, the line can be expanded to lee's Summit. If we do nothing, highway expansion is guaranteed to happen in the future. By at least starting a line into the county, we can make transit an active discussion point.

I just spoke with one of the top financing experts on transit projects in the US. Transit stimulus is expected to be a boost to existing competitive grant programs. KC will need to propose a line that is at least semi-competitive. Linwood to VA is competitive for multiple reasons (ridership, development opportunity, MLI, etc). The segment to Raytown is a little tricker. Paired together, they might pass through but this might be where an earmark comes into play. If Sharice Davids can land $600 million for highway expansion in Kansas, we can certainly land a earmark to help us cover the gap between VA and Raytown. If we can get the county to vote yes, I really think we have a good shot of securing the federal funds required.

I think we should also look at asking for a TDD directly along future rail lines. It is only fair to capture the added value of rail and results from previous elections show support is high next to the lines.

[TheLastGentleman]

KC needs trains. Needs em everywhere. Trains trains trains.

Also if streetcars and buses are perfectly interchangeable, why were they originally built in the first place? Couldn’t everyone have exclusively used omnibuses or whatever to get around? Clearly there’s something to putting vehicles on rails

[shinatoo]

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.

[smh]

KC needs trains. Needs em everywhere. Trains trains trains.

Also if streetcars and buses are perfectly interchangeable, why were they originally built in the first place? Couldn’t everyone have exclusively used omnibuses or whatever to get around? Clearly there’s something to putting vehicles on rails

Well, I mean, ride comfort was the initial reason, no? Before pneumatic tires the omnibus/cobble combo was hell on the back.

[beautyfromashes]

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

[normalthings]

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

If we don't offer a train, we are going to keep building and expanding highways and low-density sprawl.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

Because putting trains out to the burbs exposes suburbanites to transit that’s viable, efficient, and something they’d use, to then bring them downtown...

[normalthings]

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

Because putting trains out to the burbs exposes suburbanites to transit that’s viable, efficient, and something they’d use, to then bring them downtown...

also connects people in the core to jobs and amenities in the suburbs.

[shinatoo]

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

Because putting trains out to the burbs exposes suburbanites to transit that’s viable, efficient, and something they’d use, to then bring them downtown...

also connects people in the core to jobs and amenities in the suburbs.

Bit of a chicken and an egg. You have to have the infrastructure downtown to move people around effectively without a car before you can start bringing a bunch of people downtown without cars. Are we there yet?

And if we are, and you want to live the car-free life, there are plenty of affordable options downtown, or downtown adjacent, in a simi suburban setting.

[flyingember]

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

The city put a rain plan to the vote in 2009 to build a train line to within a block of my house in the northland. We moved ~10 blocks west with an infill home build, filling in a lot on a almost 100 year old street.

I live closer to downtown than Brookside is.

There's empty lots 4 miles from downtown while we build new neighborhoods 15+ miles away.

[beautyfromashes]

I just disagree on trains to the suburbs. There are not enough people there currently to warrant the huge cost and we should not be giving incentive for more people to live there. The entire focus should be bringing people and jobs back to a dense urban core.

[DaveKCMO]

I just disagree on trains to the suburbs. There are not enough people there currently to warrant the huge cost and we should not be giving incentive for more people to live there. The entire focus should be bringing people and jobs back to a dense urban core.

And we don't have dedicated right-of-way to make them fast (and that's not for lack of imagination -- acquiring property to get dedicated ROW would just drive up the already high cost of construction).

[GRID]

I just disagree on trains to the suburbs. There are not enough people there currently to warrant the huge cost and we should not be giving incentive for more people to live there. The entire focus should be bringing people and jobs back to a dense urban core.

Yep. Talk of Commuter Rail in KC should just die. The only place where commuter rail made any sense was along the I-35 tracks in JoCo and that idea died decades ago due to railroad conflicts.

If and when there is ever enough demand to build rail for suburban commuters then do it right and build light rail so that it does more than just move a couple thousand commuters that park their $50,000 cars in some rural/suburban surface parking lot near their large lot subdivisions.

Look at the Nashville system. They have the tracks, they have a nice place in downtown to end the line. They have major traffic congestion and they still can't get more than 1000 riders a day on the system. Total waste of money.

I have always thought light rail would work in KC along the I-70 corridor. Rebuild I-70 or US-40 as part of a major project that includes dedicated light rail and you have a built in commuter rail system.

[alejandro46]

Good luck with just Jackson County/KCMO funding an urban core streetcar all alone. Failed the first time, if just KCMO voted on it with no northland extension, people wont vote for it - I would but car dependent northland I doubt it'll fly. It need to be a 4 county wide solution.

[langosta]

Rock Island Updates

Canadian Pacific wants to double track their route out of the KC yard towards the south. This will require tearing out the Rock Island bridge (not the hipster food one but the one towards the stadiums). An offer was made to build the county a brand new rail bridge but county is attempting to negotiate for cash instead.

County/KCATA are also in talks to rip out two other Rock Island bridges so that two roads around Truman Sports Complex can be widened.

[KC_Ari]

That is the kind of backwards thinking I expect from Jackson county. They are currently fumbling negotiations to even keep the teams at TSC.

[GRID]

So long as the county takes the money and banks it for future transit projects, it probably makes sense cash out now till you have an actual plan.

In the mean time, I was looking at google and the primary entrances to the stadiums are borderline embarrassing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0574306 ... ?entry=ttu.

Who lives here lol?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0496838 ... ?entry=ttu

Good lord. Lots of litter.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0451097 ... ?entry=ttu

No sidewalks of course, but at least you have transit nearby!
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0441094 ... ?entry=ttu

These churches look like something you will see in the rural south
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0464221 ... ?entry=ttu

ONE narrow crosswalk on an eight lane road...to a crappy little gas station.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0502308 ... ?entry=ttu

Lol, the old Denny's site and what used to be a decent drury inn. I went into that motel while in town because I needed to get a pen and paper for something. It's an extremely bizarre motel. I would imagine it will probably close completely within a year or two.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0529171 ... ?entry=ttu

What a waste of a structure.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0523984 ... ?entry=ttu

Again, are we in the middle of one of the most populated counties in the midwest or 100 miles outside of Jackson MS?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0558848 ... ?entry=ttu

You can go on and on. All along 40 Hwy, Blue Ridge Blvd, Stadium Drive, Raytown Road. Everything within a few miles of the stadiums is literally like some trashy rural small town in the south that hasn't been remotely "nice" for many decades.

As much as I HATE the village west area. Shit, maybe it's time for Arrowhead to move over there. It would be better than where they are now. Outside of Lee's Summit and central KCMO, Jackson County is not getting any better. I guess when I lived in KC, I was used to how things are there, but everytime I go back, the city just looks worse and worse to me. Outside of the pockets of growing areas around P&L district, riverfront, pockets of midtown etc. (The area of KC that I will always love).

[GRID]

^ that post is in regards to the Truman Sports complex area of Jackson County, not KC has a whole. I don't think KC in general is a bad city or getting worse, but Jackson County is extremely poorly managed and that area of the county where KCMO, Indep and Raytown come together is just in really bad shape and is probably not going to get better.

The area is embarrassing honestly.

Maybe it's time to throw in the towel and let that area develop as a warehouse, distribution center district. The TSC could be re-purposed for huge warehouses and and could easily be modified to handle truck traffic instead of stadium traffic.

I think I'm okay with letting Arrowhead go. Especially if it means the Royals get a downtown stadium.