How is this helpful to any discussion?DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:44 amSounds like your mad cause you’ve never been invited to one of these roof top pool parties.Rabble wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am Literally not possible?
Ten years ago I would never have imagined the abundance stick built-fake exterior-roof top pool-private party zone crap now beginning to blight our downtown. This stuff works in the suburbs because the suburbs don't have anything else, but not in our downtown. I'm literally disappointed. Downtown is being annexed by Overland Park.
The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
I agree that the location should be the amenity, but I think it's overstated here how often people use them instead of adventuring out.
Kansas City outdoor space continues to be really bad too. We need to provide downtown amenities for everyone if we don't want them privatized.
Kansas City outdoor space continues to be really bad too. We need to provide downtown amenities for everyone if we don't want them privatized.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
It's just as helpful as calling the place I live a "stick built, fake exterior roof top pool private party zone crap" and acting like the 300+ million dollars invested into new apartment buildings downtown is somehow spoiling or damaging the DT neighborhood.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:13 pmHow is this helpful to any discussion?DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:44 amSounds like your mad cause you’ve never been invited to one of these roof top pool parties.Rabble wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am Literally not possible?
Ten years ago I would never have imagined the abundance stick built-fake exterior-roof top pool-private party zone crap now beginning to blight our downtown. This stuff works in the suburbs because the suburbs don't have anything else, but not in our downtown. I'm literally disappointed. Downtown is being annexed by Overland Park.
Just sounds like he's jealous or selfish, or both.
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I agree with you in regards to downtown needing more public outdoor space. Help is on the way!WoodDraw wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:09 pm I agree that the location should be the amenity, but I think it's overstated here how often people use them instead of adventuring out.
Kansas City outdoor space continues to be really bad too. We need to provide downtown amenities for everyone if we don't want them privatized.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
I know the history of downtown and don't think it started with P&L/Sprint Center. The current state of downtown certainly started with P&L/SC.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:12 pmI understand you may have this perspective given your alliance with Cordish and downtown "started" in your mind with P&L.,it's just simply not the reality for everyone, especially those who lived down here prior. The location was always the amenity that brought us down here. Cordish and other developers for sure have brought much needed additional amenities that made it a better living situation for many more of our now neighbors.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:52 amThe location is now the amenity because of the development and higher end apartments that people want to rent. Few wanted to live downtown prior to 2009. I’m having a hard time understanding what downtown would look like if your vision or preferred development happened over the last decade.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:55 am
Agree with you. The location is the amenity. Of course cordiah tells us that's not true but for those of us that lived downtown prior to them we know it's true.
There were very little amenities downtown before ground broke on the new district and I'm sure the #1 and #2 reasons people decided to live downtown prior to 2009 was proximity to work and or affordable housing. Not because they wanted to be close to shopping, entertainment, sports, dining or other current DT options.
I'm curious -- What lead you to downtown prior to P&L?
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
Maybe too harsh but not jealous. What I like about downtowns is the party is on street and everyone is invited. The greatest amenity in the world is walking a downtown street.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:43 pmIt's just as helpful as calling the place I live a "stick built, fake exterior roof top pool private party zone crap" and acting like the 300+ million dollars invested into new apartment buildings downtown is somehow spoiling or damaging the DT neighborhood.
Just sounds like he's jealous or selfish, or both.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
A building isn't a person is a pretty big difference.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:43 pmIt's just as helpful as calling the place I live a "stick built, fake exterior roof top pool private party zone crap" and acting like the 300+ million dollars invested into new apartment buildings downtown is somehow spoiling or damaging the DT neighborhood.
Just sounds like he's jealous or selfish, or both.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
I didn't work downtown when I first moved down here nor affordable housing. It's hilarious you think that's all that was downtown and shows how little you do know about downtown prior to cordiah bringing you here What drew me was walkabikity, good transit connections, architecture, city market I'd say we're the biggest things.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:49 pmI know the history of downtown and don't think it started with P&L/Sprint Center. The current state of downtown certainly started with P&L/SC.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:12 pmI understand you may have this perspective given your alliance with Cordish and downtown "started" in your mind with P&L.,it's just simply not the reality for everyone, especially those who lived down here prior. The location was always the amenity that brought us down here. Cordish and other developers for sure have brought much needed additional amenities that made it a better living situation for many more of our now neighbors.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:52 am
The location is now the amenity because of the development and higher end apartments that people want to rent. Few wanted to live downtown prior to 2009. I’m having a hard time understanding what downtown would look like if your vision or preferred development happened over the last decade.
There were very little amenities downtown before ground broke on the new district and I'm sure the #1 and #2 reasons people decided to live downtown prior to 2009 was proximity to work and or affordable housing. Not because they wanted to be close to shopping, entertainment, sports, dining or other current DT options.
I'm curious -- What lead you to downtown prior to P&L?
As I've said many times cordiah brought a lot of huge positives downtown, no doubt. My point is the location was the amenity before cordiah. Much more than a infinity edge pool.
Just like a good convenience store would be a much better amenity.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
Yeah, Cordish didn't bring me here. Born and raised in Missouri. So the past and current city leaders are lying when they say downtown used to be a place people only came to for drugs and a strip club? If downtown was so amazing before, why did the city offer up such serious and substantial incentives to developers. I have no doubt it was hustling and bustling several decades ago before the mass exodus to the burbs, but was in a piss poor state there for awhile.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:56 pmI didn't work downtown when I first moved down here nor affordable housing. It's hilarious you think that's all that was downtown and shows how little you do know about downtown prior to cordiah bringing you here What drew me was walkabikity, good transit connections, architecture, city market I'd say we're the biggest things.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:49 pmI know the history of downtown and don't think it started with P&L/Sprint Center. The current state of downtown certainly started with P&L/SC.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:12 pm
I understand you may have this perspective given your alliance with Cordish and downtown "started" in your mind with P&L.,it's just simply not the reality for everyone, especially those who lived down here prior. The location was always the amenity that brought us down here. Cordish and other developers for sure have brought much needed additional amenities that made it a better living situation for many more of our now neighbors.
There were very little amenities downtown before ground broke on the new district and I'm sure the #1 and #2 reasons people decided to live downtown prior to 2009 was proximity to work and or affordable housing. Not because they wanted to be close to shopping, entertainment, sports, dining or other current DT options.
I'm curious -- What lead you to downtown prior to P&L?
As I've said many times cordiah brought a lot of huge positives downtown, no doubt. My point is the location was the amenity before cordiah. Much more than a infinity edge pool.
Just like a good convenience store would be a much better amenity.
I'm not arguing that the downtown location itself isn't a vital reason why people move here. Not sure where that even came from. I was simply saying that in this case of the Midland building, the amenities going into the building are more desirable and important than a convenience store.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
Yes. But not everyone thinks of it as a poor location, and not everyone expects to park in a garage. Not everyone needs a rec. room with a pool table, a pool, a roof deck, a coffee bar, and social gathering place, and a gym in-house. But there are lots of bartenders, waiters/waitresses, bank clerks, cashiers, cooks, etc. that live in apartments like those, and provide the employment base for downtown businesses.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:57 amJust going to say quality hill towers are complete trash. I guess the shit quality, poor location, crappy parking, antiquated plumbing, paper thin walls and historical lack of upgrades could be classified as organically affordable.FangKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:57 am Quality Hill Towers is an example of organically cheap downtown apartments. Buildings were completed in 1951, so the buildings are 70-years-old.
https://www.qualityhilltowers.com/brochure.aspx
910 Penn tower is another. That building was completed in 1958.
https://www.910penn.com/floorplans
910 Penn was much cheaper at one time, but the prices went up after a renovation.
Downtown might have a lot more affordable options for residents there had say 10 more of these buildings been constructed around the same time as Quality Hill Towers.
The Nottingham Apartments in Crossroads West were built in 1915.
http://westsidehousing.org/findhousing/ ... rtments-2/
So many older apartment buildings that could have been filling this niche were demolished in the urban renewal craze -- assuming that the parcels would be quickly redeveloped. They weren't. It's among the reasons there is a lack of affordable housing around downtown.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
I came directly from living in New York City. I didn't have a car yet, so I chose downtown primarily to be close to public transit. I also wanted to be close to entertainment (Folly, Lyric Opera, Midland, convention center) and the public library. I looked elsewhere, but the apartment I found downtown had an in-apartment washer and dryer, when many center city apartments still didn't have those. I didn't want to have to go to laundromats, or lug laundry baskets down to some dungeon.
Even after the P&L District opened, I rarely go there. I've been to Whopper Bar once, Chipotle once, and Alamo Drafthouse theater once. I went through the Basketball experience once at Sprint Center's grand opening. I haven't been back to Sprint Center since.
I supported building the P&L District, and continue to defend the city bond subsidies, although I have said Cordish did take/has taken too long to fill empty spaces. Still believe that. They are being too picky, and possibly only can be because the City is picking up the bond payment slack. Had Cordish had to pay all the bond payments themselves without it coming from the City budget, I believe Cordish would have rented those empty spaces just to get break-even revenue. But that might be on the City for not contractually requiring them to fill the space by a certain date.
J. C. Nichols was even realistic with renting space on the Plaza. Instead of fixed rent, he took a certain percentage of profit as rent just to fill retail spaces. He believed it was a bad look to have space sitting idle too long.
However, P&L's amenities don't draw me there. If I lived in one of the apartment buildings, I doubt I'd ever use the gym or pool. I wouldn't have social gatherings on the roof deck or in some in-house movie theater. I lived in apartments for 27 years and never used that stuff. The only amenity I did enjoy was having a doorman, and finally living in an elevator building in NYC so I didn't have to climb flights of steps with groceries. I also enjoyed that there was a convenience store/deli in the ground floor of my building.
After I moved to downtown KC, I craved a good convenience store, more take-out restaurants, and a good sit-down classic diner that stayed open very late.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
@Fang: Gotta go to the Peanut at 9th and Washington.. It's "dive" and "wonderful" at the same time.
Reminiscent of the little SoHo/Tribeca joints before they became "the shit". - Hoboken like.
And John's on a summer night when they have a band on the roof, as it echos.
I hope I am not being "Captain Obvious".
Reminiscent of the little SoHo/Tribeca joints before they became "the shit". - Hoboken like.
And John's on a summer night when they have a band on the roof, as it echos.
I hope I am not being "Captain Obvious".
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
How so? Unless I’ve been misinterpreting everything I’ve ever learned about urbanism, an activated, publicly permeable ground level is one of the basic features of a quality streetscape. The Midland, being a classic old office building, was designed with a wonderfully transparent ground level, and it would be a shame to seal it off
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
I’m talking in terms of the developers desires. It may not be the best choice for all of downtown but it’s what’s best for the apartment building and renters. I also don’t think it’s a highly desirable location for potential convenience store operations either. There’s better locations closer to more foot traffic and further away from a store that carries everything you will in which most foot traffic will walk right by. I understand the late night component but 10pm-6am sales aren’t going to make up for hit of having a grocery store within a block.TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:21 amHow so? Unless I’ve been misinterpreting everything I’ve ever learned about urbanism, an activated, publicly permeable ground level is one of the basic features of a quality streetscape. The Midland, being a classic old office building, was designed with a wonderfully transparent ground level, and it would be a shame to seal it off
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
FangKC wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:37 amI came directly from living in New York City. I didn't have a car yet, so I chose downtown primarily to be close to public transit. I also wanted to be close to entertainment (Folly, Lyric Opera, Midland, convention center) and the public library. I looked elsewhere, but the apartment I found downtown had an in-apartment washer and dryer, when many center city apartments still didn't have those. I didn't want to have to go to laundromats, or lug laundry baskets down to some dungeon.
Even after the P&L District opened, I rarely go there. I've been to Whopper Bar once, Chipotle once, and Alamo Drafthouse theater once. I went through the Basketball experience once at Sprint Center's grand opening. I haven't been back to Sprint Center since.
I supported building the P&L District, and continue to defend the city bond subsidies, although I have said Cordish did take/has taken too long to fill empty spaces. Still believe that. They are being too picky, and possibly only can be because the City is picking up the bond payment slack. Had Cordish had to pay all the bond payments themselves without it coming from the City budget, I believe Cordish would have rented those empty spaces just to get break-even revenue. But that might be on the City for not contractually requiring them to fill the space by a certain date.
J. C. Nichols was even realistic with renting space on the Plaza. Instead of fixed rent, he took a certain percentage of profit as rent just to fill retail spaces. He believed it was a bad look to have space sitting idle too long.
However, P&L's amenities don't draw me there. If I lived in one of the apartment buildings, I doubt I'd ever use the gym or pool. I wouldn't have social gatherings on the roof deck or in some in-house movie theater. I lived in apartments for 27 years and never used that stuff. The only amenity I did enjoy was having a doorman, and finally living in an elevator building in NYC so I didn't have to climb flights of steps with groceries. I also enjoyed that there was a convenience store/deli in the ground floor of my building.
After I moved to downtown KC, I craved a good convenience store, more take-out restaurants, and a good sit-down classic diner that stayed open very late.
I would love a doorman!
I respect your input, only pushback from me is about Cordish not leasing up every space. Sure, there was one location they held out on but turns out that’s because it’s the site of a future residential tower. The other spots that sat empty wasn’t for a lack of effort. They employ a full time leasing manager who literally spends her time scouring the local and national markets and reaching out, trying to bring in new tenants. She has landed some of the newer clients like the axe throwing place and the bagel place.
Up until the pandemic, they hovered around 92-98% leased which isn’t too shabby considering the modern state of retail shopping.
They also do have flexible leasing options and are known to work with tenants. Ive known them to lower rent and increase their cut of the profits for example.
Sadly, even at 100% leased I believe they’d still need the city to make up the bond payment shortage. That was just a bad estimation. A NBA OR NHL team combined with a DT baseball stadium could do the trick.
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Having a doorman is very useful, especially in the age of Amazon/Ebay deliveries, since doormen can sign for packages and place them in a locked storeroom.
If I were to critique the failure of the P&L District as it pertains to the bond payments, I would say the lack of an additional sales tax is one of them. The grocery store is one. Had they added a Walgreens, I believe it would have made a difference since that's a high-volume sales tax get. The downtown CVS has always been limited by its' size. Larger drug stores can carry a lot of items grocery stores don't. They can be mini-office supply / hardware / notions stores as well. And serve as a convenience store as well.
If I were to critique the failure of the P&L District as it pertains to the bond payments, I would say the lack of an additional sales tax is one of them. The grocery store is one. Had they added a Walgreens, I believe it would have made a difference since that's a high-volume sales tax get. The downtown CVS has always been limited by its' size. Larger drug stores can carry a lot of items grocery stores don't. They can be mini-office supply / hardware / notions stores as well. And serve as a convenience store as well.
Last edited by FangKC on Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
How many years or decades of it sitting empty before its redeveloped though? I was wondering today if at some point all the shops on the west side of P&L get converted into bars.DColeKC wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:04 pmSure, there was one location they held out on but turns out that’s because it’s the site of a future residential tower.FangKC wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:37 amI came directly from living in New York City. I didn't have a car yet, so I chose downtown primarily to be close to public transit. I also wanted to be close to entertainment (Folly, Lyric Opera, Midland, convention center) and the public library. I looked elsewhere, but the apartment I found downtown had an in-apartment washer and dryer, when many center city apartments still didn't have those. I didn't want to have to go to laundromats, or lug laundry baskets down to some dungeon.
Even after the P&L District opened, I rarely go there. I've been to Whopper Bar once, Chipotle once, and Alamo Drafthouse theater once. I went through the Basketball experience once at Sprint Center's grand opening. I haven't been back to Sprint Center since.
I supported building the P&L District, and continue to defend the city bond subsidies, although I have said Cordish did take/has taken too long to fill empty spaces. Still believe that. They are being too picky, and possibly only can be because the City is picking up the bond payment slack. Had Cordish had to pay all the bond payments themselves without it coming from the City budget, I believe Cordish would have rented those empty spaces just to get break-even revenue. But that might be on the City for not contractually requiring them to fill the space by a certain date.
J. C. Nichols was even realistic with renting space on the Plaza. Instead of fixed rent, he took a certain percentage of profit as rent just to fill retail spaces. He believed it was a bad look to have space sitting idle too long.
However, P&L's amenities don't draw me there. If I lived in one of the apartment buildings, I doubt I'd ever use the gym or pool. I wouldn't have social gatherings on the roof deck or in some in-house movie theater. I lived in apartments for 27 years and never used that stuff. The only amenity I did enjoy was having a doorman, and finally living in an elevator building in NYC so I didn't have to climb flights of steps with groceries. I also enjoyed that there was a convenience store/deli in the ground floor of my building.
After I moved to downtown KC, I craved a good convenience store, more take-out restaurants, and a good sit-down classic diner that stayed open very late.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
They’re actively trying to lease every ounce of space they have available with the exception of the 14th/main and Garment District spot. I’m told they’re trying to decide what to do with that space as it wasn’t a 3rd party lease.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
Perhaps they should pay the city a fair market rate for spots they're actively not trying to rent?
Last edited by WoodDraw on Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Midland Lofts (formerly Midland Office Building)
I think it's honestly time to let someone else try and get them filled.