Two Light - 14th & Grand

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

I am truly baffled by this discussion, lol. If Cordish proposed putting in a dog park in place of Three Light, what would this board say? How is this any different?

This would be the most expensive park ever built in Kansas City. A dog park can go anywhere. Why would we reserve any of the most expensive real estate ever created in the entire region for a freakin' dog park? A dog park that will hurt the experience of the park for everyone else visiting. A dog park that will go in place of something that could be there (restaurant, beer garden, fountain, sculptures, stage, food trucks, giant playground, whatever you can possibly imagine). This could be our Millennium Park and, instead, people are totally in favor of spending $200+ million on generic greenspace with a dog run on one end? Name a single tourist attraction in the world that sits next to a private dog park.

If Cordish wants to pay for the whole thing and disregard the potential for a small benefit for some of their residents, okay fine. That's very short-sighted and stupid but okay. Think through, though, the reaction to hundreds of millions of dollars of tax money being spent on a private dog park for high-rise residents. People will lose their freakin' minds. Setting the money aside, how on earth is that worth the political capital that would need to be spent to make it happen?

What dollar value would you even place on a dark park for a few hundred residents? Like 50 grand, maybe? And yet, people in this thread are totally fine spending tens of millions on one? Even a fraction of a $200+ million project is a lot of money.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by normalthings »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:26 am
I am truly baffled by this discussion, lol. If Cordish proposed putting in a dog park in place of Three Light, what would this board say? How is this any different?

This would be the most expensive park ever built in Kansas City. A dog park can go anywhere. Why would we reserve any of the most expensive real estate ever created in the entire region for a freakin' dog park? A dog park that will hurt the experience of the park for everyone else visiting. A dog park that will go in place of something that could be there (restaurant, beer garden, fountain, sculptures, stage, food trucks, giant playground, whatever you can possibly imagine). This could be our Millennium Park and, instead, people are totally in favor of spending $200+ million on generic greenspace with a dog run on one end? Name a single tourist attraction in the world that sits next to a private dog park.

If Cordish wants to pay for the whole thing and disregard the potential for a small benefit for some of their residents, okay fine. That's very short-sighted and stupid but okay. Think through, though, the reaction to hundreds of millions of dollars of tax money being spent on a private dog park for high-rise residents. People will lose their freakin' minds. Setting the money aside, how on earth is that worth the political capital that would need to be spent to make it happen?

What dollar value would you even place on a dark park for a few hundred residents? Like 50 grand, maybe? And yet, people in this thread are totally fine spending tens of millions on one? Even a fraction of a $200+ million project is a lot of money.
Based off of DCOLE’s post and what is there now, you are really over estimating this dog park. Think more of a 5 by 20 box for your dog to do its business at that gets cleaned regularly. Having Cordish’s 1,000 apartments use 1 spot and not cover the entire public part of the park in dog dodo does benefit everyone. Imagine this more like Cordish’s dog park is temporary closed while a cap park is built next to it and then is rebuilt and reopens once that park is completed.

It is also my understanding that private parties would pay for most of the park. If $50,000 worth of dog park earns a $50 million contribution then yes we should accept it.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:42 am
Think more of a 5 by 20 box for your dog to do its business at that gets cleaned regularly.
It is also my understanding that private parties would pay for most of the park. If $50,000 worth of dog park earns a $50 million contribution then yes we should accept it.
If it's such a nothing thing that takes up no space that is so incredibly valuable to Cordish, build it into Three Light's garage. Residents wouldn't even have to leave the building or cross the street. Win/win.
Last edited by TheBigChuckbowski on Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by normalthings »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:48 am
normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:42 am
Think more of a 5 by 20 box for your dog to do its business at that gets cleaned regularly.
It is also my understanding that private parties would pay for most of the park. If $50,000 worth of dog park earns a $50 million contribution then yes we should accept it.
If it's such a nothing thing that takes up no space that is so incredibly valuable to Cordish, build it into Three Light's garage. Residents wouldn't even have to leave the building or cross the street. Win/win.
Would you rather Cordish not fund a park and not allow their existing dog park to be used in a cap project? Why do you prefer having no park?

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:55 am
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:48 am
normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:42 am
Think more of a 5 by 20 box for your dog to do its business at that gets cleaned regularly.
It is also my understanding that private parties would pay for most of the park. If $50,000 worth of dog park earns a $50 million contribution then yes we should accept it.
If it's such a nothing thing that takes up no space that is so incredibly valuable to Cordish, build it into Three Light's garage. Residents wouldn't even have to leave the building or cross the street. Win/win.
Would you rather Cordish not fund a park and not allow their existing dog park to be used in a cap project? Why do you prefer having no park?
There is no way that Cordish is letting this deal fall apart for a small dog park. They would be sacrificing untold real estate value if that thing remains a highway. So, giving in on that seems pretty silly.

Again, if Cordish wants to pay for the whole thing, whatever. Have your dog park. But, even in that scenario, it's stupid from Cordish's perspective. They would be sacrificing the overall quality of the park and a potential money-making opportunity to put in an amenity for a few hundred residents worth 50 grand that could easily be included in the building they're about to put up. A world-class park has tens of millions of value for them, maybe more, even if they don't make any money directly off the park. A ho-hum greenspace with private dog park has almost no spinoff value aside from getting rid of the highway (which is certainly super valuable but they'd be leaving a shit-load of opportunity cost on the table).

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:55 am
Would you rather Cordish not fund a park and not allow their existing dog park to be used in a cap project? Why do you prefer having no park?
You’re misrepresenting the argument. I think we can all agree that if this park’s entire existence hinges on whether Cordish gets their dog park, let them have it. However, that does not preclude critiquing the situation and its elements. It is very possible to voice complaints with a project without wishing for its total elimination.

I, for one, support the construction of the park. I am also opposed to part of it being used for a dog park. I give higher priority to constructing the park than eliminating the dog park, of course, but that doesn’t mean I do not still oppose the dog park.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:04 pm
normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:55 am
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:48 am


If it's such a nothing thing that takes up no space that is so incredibly valuable to Cordish, build it into Three Light's garage. Residents wouldn't even have to leave the building or cross the street. Win/win.
Would you rather Cordish not fund a park and not allow their existing dog park to be used in a cap project? Why do you prefer having no park?
There is no way that Cordish is letting this deal fall apart for a small dog park. They would be sacrificing untold real estate value if that thing remains a highway. So, giving in on that seems pretty silly.

Again, if Cordish wants to pay for the whole thing, whatever. Have your dog park. But, even in that scenario, it's stupid from Cordish's perspective. They would be sacrificing the overall quality of the park and a potential money-making opportunity to put in an amenity for a few hundred residents worth 50 grand that could easily be included in the building they're about to put up. A world-class park has tens of millions of value for them, maybe more, even if they don't make any money directly off the park. A ho-hum greenspace with private dog park has almost no spinoff value aside from getting rid of the highway (which is certainly super valuable but they'd be leaving a shit-load of opportunity cost on the table).
I don't think you're understanding.... like at all. Cordish is very careful with their investments and yes, a small dog run is very important to them. This is a simple place to let dogs off the lease, not an elaborate setup with an doggy obstacle course. Maybe you're not getting how minimal we are talking here, maybe you're a visual person? So here's a quick and crude drawing.
Image

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by alejandro46 »

Cost benefit analysis. Without Cordish, no loop cap. Give them what they want. If they want a private area, go for it. A private streetside cafe/ bar in the park could also be a nice idea. This should be a gathering place in addition to an open recreation area.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:10 pm

I don't think you're understanding.... like at all. Cordish is very careful with their investments and yes, a small dog run is very important to them. This is a simple place to let dogs off the lease, not an elaborate setup with an doggy obstacle course. Maybe you're not getting how minimal we are talking here, maybe you're a visual person? So here's a quick and crude drawing.
Image
Dude, I know exactly what you're describing. In fact, what you just drew up is WORSE that I imagined, because I was actually thinking it would be somewhat out of the way, not right in the middle.

Again, I'd love someone to explain why, if this is such a small tiny simple thing that has incredible value to Cordish, they aren't building it into Three Light. A project that would actually make the concept more valuable because people wouldn't have to leave the building and cross a street and would maintain the value and potential of the cap park.
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:10 pm
an elaborate setup with an doggy obstacle course
Honestly, if they made the world's greatest dog park. Like, Maggie Daley Park but for dogs, that would actually be kind of cool and I'd be on board (assuming it was open to the public, of course).

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:21 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:10 pm

I don't think you're understanding.... like at all. Cordish is very careful with their investments and yes, a small dog run is very important to them. This is a simple place to let dogs off the lease, not an elaborate setup with an doggy obstacle course. Maybe you're not getting how minimal we are talking here, maybe you're a visual person? So here's a quick and crude drawing.
Image
Dude, I know exactly what you're describing. In fact, what you just drew up is WORSE that I imagined, because I was actually thinking it would be somewhat out of the way, not right in the middle.

Again, I'd love someone to explain why, if this is such a small tiny simple thing that has incredible value to Cordish, they aren't building it into Three Light. A project that would actually make the concept more valuable because people wouldn't have to leave the building and cross a street and would maintain the value and potential of the cap park.
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:10 pm
an elaborate setup with an doggy obstacle course
Honestly, if they made the world's greatest dog park. Like, Maggie Daley Park but for dogs, that would actually be kind of cool and I'd be on board (assuming it was open to the public, of course).
That was just to show you an example of the total size it would occupy, I have no idea where they'd actually locate it. Perhaps dead center for all I know.

Kylde Warren Park in Dallas is the perfect example. It features an off lease dog park called, My Best Friends Park. It's open to the public and if that's the accommodation needed to make everyone happy, I'm sure Cordish would bend. However, a dog park is a very essential requirement.

I'd like someone to explain why this is such an upsetting topic to you? Hate dogs? I'm confused.

Building an interior dog run was originally a part of the plan for Two Light but interior space is more valuable than exterior space. Interior space is revenue generating, so the dog run went away in favor of more room for Spark which is now 77% leased.

They're not going to build it in to any building because they've been invested in getting this park done for a long time. That's always been the plan.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

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"digging their crow" = "leaving their crap"

Totally agree.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

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DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:27 pm
I'd like someone to explain why this is such an upsetting topic to you? Hate dogs? I'm confused.
Because it's so stupid. It's blowing tens of millions of dollars on something worth 50 grand. It makes no sense from a financial perspective, whether talking tax dollars or Cordish dollars. It makes the potential park worse. It has great opportunity cost in what could have otherwise gone in this space.

And, it just shows a tremendous lack of vision.

Like, this park could be a big tourist attraction that brings people downtown and a great amenity for downtown/Cordish residents and, instead, we're talking about it as if it's some unused green space that we could throw a small private dog park into. No, that's what's there now. Once hundreds of millions of dollars are invested, we shouldn't be thinking of this space as some generic park just there to cover the highway, we should be thinking of how to build the world's greatest small urban park. Why invest that much money if your only goal is to cover up a highway and put in a dog park? It'd be like building a duplex instead of Three Light. The ROI isn't there. But, make it into something special and it'll not only be worth the money but provide untold value on top of that.
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:27 pm
Building an interior dog run was originally a part of the plan for Two Light but interior space is more valuable than exterior space. Interior space is revenue generating, so the dog run went away in favor of more room for Spark which is now 77% leased.
I was more thinking on the roof of the garage, but either way, you're saying that it's not worth the value of a few apartments or parking spaces. So, you very clearly know that it isn't worth a whole lot, in the grand scheme of things, and understand how opportunity cost works. But, at the same time, you then argue that it's worth tens of millions of dollars (because that's what the space it will take up will cost to build) plus the opportunity cost moving forward of whatever the space could be used for if it wasn't a dog park.

If it isn't worth sacrificing a few apartments, parking spaces, or space on the amenity deck in Three Light, that will cost $150 million to build, then it certainly isn't worth sacrificing park space in a park that will cost $200+ million to build.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:57 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:27 pm
I'd like someone to explain why this is such an upsetting topic to you? Hate dogs? I'm confused.
Because it's so stupid. It's blowing tens of millions of dollars on something worth 50 grand. It makes no sense from a financial perspective, whether talking tax dollars or Cordish dollars. It makes the potential park worse. It has great opportunity cost in what could have otherwise gone in this space.

And, it just shows a tremendous lack of vision.

Like, this park could be a big tourist attraction that brings people downtown and a great amenity for downtown/Cordish residents and, instead, we're talking about it as if it's some unused green space that we could throw a small private dog park into. No, that's what's there now. Once hundreds of millions of dollars are invested, we shouldn't be thinking of this space as some generic park just there to cover the highway, we should be thinking of how to build the world's greatest small urban park. Why invest that much money if your only goal is to cover up a highway and put in a dog park? It'd be like building a duplex instead of Three Light. The ROI isn't there. But, make it into something special and it'll not only be worth the money but provide untold value on top of that.
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:27 pm
Building an interior dog run was originally a part of the plan for Two Light but interior space is more valuable than exterior space. Interior space is revenue generating, so the dog run went away in favor of more room for Spark which is now 77% leased.
I was more thinking on the roof of the garage, but either way, you're saying that it's not worth the value of a few apartments or parking spaces. So, you very clearly know that it isn't worth a whole lot, in the grand scheme of things, and understand how opportunity cost works. But, at the same time, you then argue that it's worth tens of millions of dollars (because that's what the space it will take up will cost to build) plus the opportunity cost moving forward of whatever the space could be used for if it wasn't a dog park.

If it isn't worth sacrificing a few apartments, parking spaces, or space on the amenity deck in Three Light, that will cost $150 million to build, then it certainly isn't worth sacrificing park space in a park that will cost $200+ million to build.
You talk like the park would be built just for the dog park. That's not the case. It would still feature all the things a world class park features. Green space, walking paths, a pavilion, children play area, art, fountains etc. Look at Klyde Warren park and tell me the small dog park ruins the entire park.

On top of what parking garage at 3L? There's an apartment building that will be on top of the parking garage. Once again, they've planned to build this park for a very long time, so why eat up retail, revenue generating space for something they've long planned to go into this park?

I think the only one showing a true lack of vision about this would be you. You can't seem to see past the small dog park section of the overall project. You can't seem to understand that the people putting the money in have indeed thought about this. The park will truly be something special, with several areas and amenities for the general public, residents, hotel guests and tourist to utilize.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by smh »

I guess I don't understand why a dog run/park area can't be for everyone? My issue is with the allocation of public space for private use. If a dog park is needed, surely Two Light isn't the only residence that is in need. Why don't we simply include a dog area for everyone? Klyde Warren has just such a thing.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

smh wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:26 pm
I guess I don't understand why a dog run/park area can't be for everyone? My issue is with the allocation of public space for private use. If a dog park is needed, surely Two Light isn't the only residence that is in need. Why don't we simply include a dog area for everyone? Klyde Warren has just such a thing.
I just spoke to someone with more recent knowledge and it sounds like Cordish is totally fine with the dog park being available to the public, but do have security and maintenance concerns. Nothing that can't be worked out.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by alejandro46 »

I think it would be harder and more expensive to make a private dog park. Like are they going to fence it all in and have access control? That's not cheap. Best that it is not private. I mean if its that big of a deal, go buy a parking lot across 435 for 1/100 as much and turn it into a private dog run. I just want to see the highway capped, I think it would be a huge improvement for DT.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

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DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:41 pm
smh wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:26 pm
I guess I don't understand why a dog run/park area can't be for everyone? My issue is with the allocation of public space for private use. If a dog park is needed, surely Two Light isn't the only residence that is in need. Why don't we simply include a dog area for everyone? Klyde Warren has just such a thing.
I just spoke to someone with more recent knowledge and it sounds like Cordish is totally fine with the dog park being available to the public, but do have security and maintenance concerns. Nothing that can't be worked out.
Nice, that sounds more like it. I would hope that a park in this location would be pretty successful (i.e., used by lots of people all of the time) which would likely address any security concerns. I'd further hope this would be a flagship piece of infrastructure that would be well maintained...that might be where the CID/Cordish/City have to get a little creative. I am always reminded of Washington Park (https://washingtonpark.org/) in Cincinnatti. I know that one of the ways they pay to maintain the park is through sponsorship like The Porch sponsored by PPG Paints (used to be the Southwest Airlines Party Porch, but times change I guess). I suppose these are the kinds of ideas that were floated for Barney Allis maintenance when that concept was discussed, so they should be very easily ported to this site.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

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DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
You talk like the park would be built just for the dog park. That's not the case. It would still feature all the things a world class park features. Green space, walking paths, a pavilion, children play area, art, fountains etc. Look at Klyde Warren park and tell me the small dog park ruins the entire park.
I've never been there but Klyde Warren Park doesn't look all that great on Google Maps TBH. I mean, it's completely vacant in Street View, like literally there's not a single person using the park. Not saying that's because of the dog park, it's not obviously, just an observation.

And, all of the features you mention are just normal things that go in normal parks.
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
On top of what parking garage at 3L? There's an apartment building that will be on top of the parking garage.
So Two Light doesn't have a pool on top of the garage?
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
Once again, they've planned to build this park for a very long time, so why eat up retail, revenue generating space for something they've long planned to go into this park?
Because A. this park will be super insanely expensive B. the park can/will have plenty of revenue generating space C. it would be more valuable to residents if it was in the building D. it can go literally anywhere else for cheaper, without barking dogs disturbing the rest of the park E. it will make the park worse and sacrifice opportunity cost F. you'd be sacrificing any taxpayer funding
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
I think the only one showing a true lack of vision about this would be you. You can't seem to see past the small dog park section of the overall project. You can't seem to understand that the people putting the money in have indeed thought about this. The park will truly be something special, with several areas and amenities for the general public, residents, hotel guests and tourist to utilize.
It can be special, even with a private dog park, but I have significant doubts. Not only does a private dog park show an incredible lack of vision and willingness to sacrifice ROI but a bunch of barking dogs will make the rest of the park less special. In addition, putting a private dog park in the plans will put a massive risk on any taxpayer funding. It is a non-starter for taxpayer dollars to go to a project that will fund a private dog-park for high-rise residents and less money = a worse park, if it would still even happen without taxpayer funding. Now, maybe it becomes public and that changes things, but that's political capital burned that should be burned making the park world-class.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:59 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
You talk like the park would be built just for the dog park. That's not the case. It would still feature all the things a world class park features. Green space, walking paths, a pavilion, children play area, art, fountains etc. Look at Klyde Warren park and tell me the small dog park ruins the entire park.
I've never been there but Klyde Warren Park doesn't look all that great on Google Maps TBH. I mean, it's completely vacant in Street View, like literally there's not a single person using the park. Not saying that's because of the dog park, it's not obviously, just an observation.
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
On top of what parking garage at 3L? There's an apartment building that will be on top of the parking garage.
So Two Light doesn't have a pool on top of the garage?
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
Once again, they've planned to build this park for a very long time, so why eat up retail, revenue generating space for something they've long planned to go into this park?
Because A. this park will be super insanely expensive B. the park can/will have plenty of revenue generating space C. it would be more valuable to residents if it was in the building D. it can go literally anywhere else for cheaper, without barking dogs disturbing the rest of the park E. it will make the park worse and sacrifice opportunity cost F. you'd be sacrificing any taxpayer funding
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 pm
I think the only one showing a true lack of vision about this would be you. You can't seem to see past the small dog park section of the overall project. You can't seem to understand that the people putting the money in have indeed thought about this. The park will truly be something special, with several areas and amenities for the general public, residents, hotel guests and tourist to utilize.
It can be special, even with a private dog park, but I have significant doubts. Not only does a private dog park show an incredible lack of vision and willingness to sacrifice ROI but a bunch of barking dogs will make the rest of the park less special. In addition, putting a private dog park in the plans will put a massive risk on any taxpayer funding. It is a non-starter for taxpayer dollars to go to a project that will fund a private dog-park for high-rise residents and less money = a worse park, if it would still even happen without taxpayer funding. Now, maybe it becomes public and that changes things, but that's political capital burned that should be burned making the park world-class.
I don't anything is going to change your mind. Who knows when the google maps image as taken, could have been a cold day in the winter. The park sees over a million visitors a year and was funded via 40 million public dollars and 60+ million private. It's almost the exact same size in acreage that KC's park will be. It has several great areas and while open to the public, it's privately operated. They hold 1100 events in the park each year.

I think you may be in the smaller portion of the population who don't like dogs. I'd much rather have them confined to a certain area and make the rest of the park unavailable to dogs. "A bunch of barking dogs" is dramatic and considering it would be surrounded by landscaping, unless you're sitting up against the fence of the dog park, I doubt you'd even notice while anywhere else in the park. As I mentioned previously, it sounds like they're willing to make the dog park public.

Cordish isn't going to dump 75 or 100 million into a boring, unsophisticated grass field.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by KCPowercat »

Sign me up for the Dallas park but I have some slight programming tweaks. I think we'd all be pretty happy with that based on what I saw.

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