Status and future of the River Market area??

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
Rabble
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

KCPowercat wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:10 am
Lowering 9 highway and fixing independence should be much higher on our priority list
This is absolutely right, why wait for the north loop removal before tearing this approach out? 4th, Missouri and Independence could all be reconnected between the River Market and Columbus Park. The 1/2 cloverleaf could be removed and Cherry street could be straightened out. What a thrill it would be to see buildings developed across Cherry from the old Jennies restaurant building!

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by rxlexi »

Permits related to service disconnect and demolition for Ashland Project have been filed. Excavation/gas turn off was approved last week.
Paired with the reconnected Walnut Street and City Market signage/infrastructure improvements, this project is really going to transform the north side of the market and the area around the streetcar stop. Should be a nice bookend for Walnut and make that end of the market feel more embedded within the city. And then, hopefully soon than later, the transformation will be complete with 3rd/Grand mixed use on that corner. Major, major improvements in that area for the first time in many years.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by FangKC »

Double Tap Virtual Reality Arcade Parlor Opening in River Market
...
Their new Double Tap virtual reality arcade and pub is opening this Saturday at 310 Oak in the River Market next door to the Strange Days Brewing Co.
...
Double Tap will have a full bar, but no food. People can bring in whatever they’d like to eat or have it delivered.

The arcade will 30 VR games available with new ones swapped in monthly. Players also can ask for a VR game in advance.

Hours will be Monday through Thursday, 4- 11 p.m.; Friday, 4 p.m. to 1 a.m.; Saturday, 9 a.m. to 1 a.m., and Sunday, 9 a.m. to 11 p.m.

Capacity during the current Covid-19 health restrictions is 80 people, but when restrictions are lifted Double Tap can accommodate 160.
...
https://cityscenekc.com/double-tap-virt ... er-market/

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Rabble wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:12 pm
This in effect would be a railroad tunnel with parkland on top and would be similar to the south loop cap proposal.
Here's some examples of buried waterfront rail lines.

San Francisco

Image

Seattle

Image

St. Louis

Image

I think something like these is plausible for the Kansas City riverfront.

Image

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:38 pm
Rabble wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:12 pm
This in effect would be a railroad tunnel with parkland on top and would be similar to the south loop cap proposal.
Here's some examples of buried waterfront rail lines.

San Francisco

Image

Seattle

Image

St. Louis

Image

I think something like these is plausible for the Kansas City riverfront.

Image
I can see this happening in the 2060s

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

It's highly implausible we could ever raise the land by 15+ feet

There's bedrock a few feet down. It would need to be a tunnel built up around the rails and then covered

That's a major engineering project since we're talking about redoing the grade of a riverbank to raise the levy. One of the worst things to get involved with is a project that impacts river navigation, every agency possible gets involved at that point.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:56 am
It's highly implausible we could ever raise the land by 15+ feet

There's bedrock a few feet down. It would need to be a tunnel built up around the rails and then covered

That's a major engineering project since we're talking about redoing the grade of a riverbank to raise the levy. One of the worst things to get involved with is a project that impacts river navigation, every agency possible gets involved at that point.
Of course it would be a major engineering project but does that make it a bad idea? Every great city has a great waterfront and every great city figured out how to get one.

Berkley Park is suburban development on bottom land barely connected to downtown. It should not be confused with a great waterfront.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

How it is a better waterfront park if it's elevated 30 feet above the water and it's wider compared to the current height with the current park?

Given competiting needs for money would we be better putting the money into the space we have today? Potentially hundreds of millions of dollars could build a huge amount of bike paths across the metro.

It's a nice thought but it doesn't seen like it should be on a top 100 list given there's a huge amount of riverfront land we could improve without needing so much work

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by WoodDraw »

Maybe some small scale improvements instead? There's just no way this is going to happen.

But it's true Kansas City absolutely sucks at making useable park space, especially urban park space.

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:46 pm
How it is a better waterfront park if it's elevated 30 feet above the water and it's wider compared to the current height with the current park?

Given competiting needs for money would we be better putting the money into the space we have today? Potentially hundreds of millions of dollars could build a huge amount of bike paths across the metro.

It's a nice thought but it doesn't seen like it should be on a top 100 list given there's a huge amount of riverfront land we could improve without needing so much work
Limited possibility for spin-off development. High costs. Near existing city park infrastructure.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

The city is developing all around this site without any changes. That’s not a limited possibility, that’s actual development.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I doodled what I'm picturing from this discussion.

It would be expensive and complicated, sure, but what isn't? I could see a massive amount of spin off development and economic activity from something like this. You could have tour boats dock there from places like Parkville, have riverfront hotels and restaurants, ect ect


Image

It is the RIVER Market after all, and the current riverfront is looking pretty shabby right now.

Image

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by dukuboy1 »

I think looking at STL River could be useful for us. There is a nice park where The Arch is but no real development. When you go to the North is where you see the development. I think what you have around Berkeley Park is good. A lot of land that is starting to get developed. Plus Casino will have a major overhaul. You can take that and see if it takes off. If so you can look to expand West up the river bank & merge it with the River Market growing to the North. I think in time we will see more. Just will take some time. Not 20yrs, but 5-10yrs to see vast majority improvements of the entire area for sure

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:01 am
I doodled what I'm picturing from this discussion.

It would be expensive and complicated, sure, but what isn't? I could see a massive amount of spin off development and economic activity from something like this. You could have tour boats dock there from places like Parkville, have riverfront hotels and restaurants, ect ect


Image

It is the RIVER Market after all, and the current riverfront is looking pretty shabby right now.

Image
I never thought about so many buildings right up to the waterfront. I like it except it needs some crooked streets to give it the Casbah feel.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

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dukuboy1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:38 am
I think looking at STL River could be useful for us. There is a nice park where The Arch is but no real development. When you go to the North is where you see the development. I think what you have around Berkeley Park is good. A lot of land that is starting to get developed. Plus Casino will have a major overhaul. You can take that and see if it takes off. If so you can look to expand West up the river bank & merge it with the River Market growing to the North. I think in time we will see more. Just will take some time. Not 20yrs, but 5-10yrs to see vast majority improvements of the entire area for sure
The urban renewal program in St. Louis tore down at least 30 square blocks of fine warehouse buildings in order to build a park and an over-sized croquet wicket. Fortunately the Kansas City riverfront doesn't have to deal with that.

However, St. Louis did see their waterfront as a economic development tool. And I'm sure there are people looking to relocate businesses, or plan conventions, who have a passion for waterfronts and find Kansas City's lacking.

For good or bad our waterfront is the portal of entry for every visitor who comes to downtown from the airport. We can't wait for it to come back organically while spending millions to cap the south loop and build a downtown ballpark. First things first.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

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Last edited by normalthings on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:44 am
dukuboy1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:38 am
I think looking at STL River could be useful for us. There is a nice park where The Arch is but no real development. When you go to the North is where you see the development. I think what you have around Berkeley Park is good. A lot of land that is starting to get developed. Plus Casino will have a major overhaul. You can take that and see if it takes off. If so you can look to expand West up the river bank & merge it with the River Market growing to the North. I think in time we will see more. Just will take some time. Not 20yrs, but 5-10yrs to see vast majority improvements of the entire area for sure
For good or bad our waterfront is the portal of entry for every visitor who comes to downtown from the airport. We can't wait for it to come back organically while spending millions to cap the south loop and build a downtown ballpark. First things first.
Maybe it was the portal to KC in 1870 but it isn't today.

From SB 69 Highway, the area that last gent has highlighted is somewhat hard to see. The average visitor instead will be drawn to the WB area or the towers of the CBD. The new Broadway Bridge is going to be angled away from and physically farther from this area.

From SB I29, drivers see downtown and Berkley Riverfront Park. A redeveloped Berkley Riverfront will be much more visible to people driving in and require no large city/state expenditure.

I think some posters are writing off the value of the nature trail with industrial touches. Visitors that I bring to that area absolutely love how it blends nature (river, trees, etc) with industrial remanents of the city's history. Turning this area into a nice urban forest/park is probably the best outcome.
The old rail ROW could be cleaned up with additonal trees and maybe a trail. It would be a fraction of the cost of the above proposal, keep the rail ROW open, and provide a unique amenity for visitors and residents alike.
flyingember wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:45 pm
The city is developing all around this site without any changes. That’s not a limited possibility, that’s actual development.
I think we are saying the same or similar things. This area is already pretty well developed. Most existing buildings have active uses and the parking lots are quickly (for KC) getting picked up and developed. Unlike P&L, there really isn't much spin-off development that would be caused by the large city investment in building a concrete deck here.

Regardless, I doubt that spending tens or hundreds of millions on something here is a good investment for the city. Even if you got every empty lot in RM built up because of this project, that is less of an impact than i670 cap would have (towers along the cap, some infill in Crossroads). These funds could be used to build bike lanes, improve existing parklands, or invest in job creation
Last edited by normalthings on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by shinatoo »

Missouri river is gross and it's levels vary too much to put anything of value on it. It should be the back lot of KC. The more we can do to minimize it the better.
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:01 am

Image
This doodle's scale is dramatically off

You did a 10-12 foot tunnel (approximate floor height) and the state minimum is 22 feet
https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... c265-8.pdf


The railroads are 25-30 feet above river level
If we assume 12 foot floors, the boat would be floating two stories below the boardwalk. Approximately triple the current distance based on people size


and working within the context of three wide tracks, there needs to be 8 feet clearance on either side and there's three tracks at 75 feet
So within the context of the drawing, the tunnel needs to be about 5x wider at 90 feet wide


It also puts buildings within the flood plain, which is why I mentioned raising the land by about 15 feet so the river is 50 feet down

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:44 am
Missouri river is gross and it's levels vary too much to put anything of value on it. It should be the back lot of KC. The more we can do to minimize it the better.
There are non-gross non-level varying rivers in the world?

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