Companies moving downtown

[TheLastGentleman]

Would yo7u be bothered if downtown fills up and companies start looking east to build new buildings?

The real premium locations are 15 minutes closer for people who ride the bus.

I've always imagined the skyline pushing east. It's the only direction that really seems suited to real towers. Quality Hill, the River Market, and the Crossroads all seem fairly comfortable being low-mid rise. Paseo West, on the other hand, offers a pretty blank slate to work with and features some neat landmarks that need some TLC. It would also better connect KCU to downtown.

[beautyfromashes]

There are plenty of other places to build tall office buildings. Kansas City doesn't grow that fast.

Every empty lot a block east and west of the streetcar line DT will be used in the next 20 years. It’s hard to know if this pushes development through DT or if location is such a priority that lower rise buildings are torn down for taller building. 12 stories will be a regret in a couple years.

[normalthings]

There are plenty of other places to build tall office buildings. Kansas City doesn't grow that fast.

Every empty lot a block east and west of the streetcar line DT will be used in the next 20 years. It’s hard to know if this pushes development through DT or if location is such a priority that lower rise buildings are torn down for taller building. 12 stories will be a regret in a couple years.

You could have said the same thing 20 years ago when the site was first being floated around. Yet, here we are a fifth of a century later with nothing on that lot still. If we ever get to the point where all blocks are filled in the CBD, it will be far enough down the road that either - other smaller/ older buildings will be ripe for demo or this building itself will be old. The North and East Loop areas alone could handle tens of millions of SQFT before this block would be looked at for removal.

[beautyfromashes]

You could have said the same thing 20 years ago when the site was first being floated around. Yet, here we are a fifth of a century later with nothing on that lot still. If we ever get to the point where all blocks are filled in the CBD, it will be far enough down the road that either - other smaller/ older buildings will be ripe for demo or this building itself will be old. The North and East Loop areas alone could handle tens of millions of SQFT before this block would be looked at for removal.

No doubt, we have tons of empty space in our DT. The question is, how much more valuable is a lot like this than one in East Village? Would a large business in the future prefer to tear down even a relatively new but short building in a prime spot vs. building on an empty lot more out of the way of activity, amenities and transportation? I know it’s probably difficult for people in KC to think about a boom where buildings that were just renovated are torn down, but it will happen, and soon. Homes2suites comes to mind. Lead bank. These are not permanent fixtures in prime locations. We need to start pushing for taller buildings that ensure permanence and thus expansion to other parts of the CBD.

[Highlander]

I think it's great news for downtown regardless of how disappointing some are by the modest proposed height. Opportunities to get 1000 well paid workers downtown are few and far between. This project also creates motivation for some of W&R employees to move downtown with their jobs. As critical mass starts to accumulate, DT becomes more and more the place to be. Hopefully, it's part of a continuing positive feedback loop.

I think it would be great if they could go into the Copaken site to provide infill on Grand Avenue (is this the site between 12th and 13th or 10th and 11th on Grand? Both blocks are essentially surface lots). The IBM site is barely a quarter of a block, seems like a building here would need to be taller due to the smaller footprint?

[missingkc]

If and when the need arises for office construction to move out of the loop, I imagine it occurring in the Crossroads and along Main between Crown Center and the Plaza rather than Paseo West.

[kenrbnj]

The grand problem is there IS a wealth of unused or UNDER-utilized space downtown; the economics simply do not support office buildings above 15-20 stories -- yet. As the land becomes consumed; the roof heights will rise. This is profoundly true, considering desirable office plates are spec'd to be 15,000SF or greater.

Downtown is getting there.

+1 on the east-bound migration of the downtown. ..Toward Holmes and Charlotte..

[Riverite]

I for aren’t even that concerned at the moment with all high rises in east village, I’d give anything to see East village and paseo west just be functional walkable parts of downtown

[WoodDraw]

I for aren’t even that concerned at the moment with all high rises in east village, I’d give anything to see East village and paseo west just be functional walkable parts of downtown

Instead the developer is sitting on it for another decade hoping the royals will take it

[GRID]

For 65 million in incentives, Cincinnati got the 320 million 800,000 sq ft 41 story Great American Tower. Great American only occupies half the building. Cincy got a signature tower with room for another 1000-1500 employees in addition to Great American for the investment.

Milwaukee got the new 140 million 25 story 380k sq ft BMO Tower where 600 employees are moving for BMO, the tower has since landed some pretty big tenants to fill the rest of the building. The building did not use any public incentives.

Also in Milwaukee, the 450 million 32 story 1.5 million sq ft Northwestern Mutual Tower was built with 50 million in incentives.

The new super green $400 million 800,000 sq ft 32 story Tower at pnc plaza in Pittsburgh was built without any public incentives.

Baltimore’s new mixed use 25 story $160 million Exelon Tower was built with 41 million in incentives.

You can find many other examples from peer cities such as Sacramento, Nashville, Cleveland etc where cities get much larger developments for less public incentives. KC still has the most absurd corporate handout I have seen anywhere in the country with the Cerner campuses, especially the Banister one with its secured private single use office park and surface parking lots. I mean the public can’t even drive through it.

KC will get a 10-15 story building with just enough space for W&R for 65 million in incentives plus probably a lot more with city incentives. It's not about the height, it's about the missed opportunity.

So I think it’s fair to be a little disappointed with this development. It’s great that a local company is finally moving downtown, but when you follow national development like I do, I was just hoping for a bit more based on similar types of moves I have seen. Again, I’m glad they are moving. I’m glad Cerner didn’t leave the metro too I guess…

[flyingember]

We could easily get a much worse deal too.


You can find larger incentive packages from other cities too. I'm sure there's zero difference in the scale on the average across states.



Amazon was going to get $2.4 billion in incentives for campus 2
DC offered $1 billion
Columbus offered $2.8 billion
Georgia offered $2 billion
The whole project was $5 billion, so some of these were reaching 60% of the cost.


Wisconsin was going to give Foxconn $4 billion for a $10 billion investment, or 30%

IBM got 20% of a new FAB covered by NY, nearly $1 million per job

Boeing got 73 million from TX just to not move. No new development from that one

[GRID]

You are trying to compare some of the biggest corporate moves in america to basic everyday development in metro KC. The Amazon corporate welfare is off the charts, but at least you do get something in return. Amazon will build urban development, not suburban office parks (ie Cerner) and Cerner has gotten way more in incentives than most cities offered Amazon. And Amazon (or Boeing etc) has a much larger economic spin-off effect. There are already hundreds of millions of dollars worth of development going up in residential towers near Amazon's new towers in VA and office towers are being proposed for those that want to be near Amazon, none of that was happening before Amazon. What is going up near Cerner? Just be honest.

And I'm all for incentives to bring urban development to KC, but there are so few opportunities to build substantial projects in KC so I was just hoping for W&R to be part of a much larger project considering the incentives involved. H&R Block got similar ridiculous incentives, but they were also a major part of the P&L district. The District likely would not have been built or would have been much smaller without H&R Block. All I'm saying is maximize investments like this. They don't come very often. It could be worse though. Kansas would easily give them the same amount of money to move from Downtown to a suburb.

[GRID]

And maybe W&R will be part of a much larger, more impactfull development, even if they don't build a very tall building. But now is the time to try to push the development in that direction when it's still in the design process. If it ends up just an office on a parking pedestal, I'm not sure I get the hype especially if all the eco revenue goes back to the developer.

[kcjak]

In comparison, the new Hyatt House is 13 stories

[kenrbnj]

For 65 million in incentives, Cincinnati got the 320 million 800,000 sq ft 41 story Great American Tower. Great American only occupies half the building. Cincy got a signature tower with room for another 1000-1500 employees in addition to Great American for the investment.

Milwaukee got the new 140 million 25 story 380k sq ft BMO Tower where 600 employees are moving for BMO, the tower has since landed some pretty big tenants to fill the rest of the building. The building did not use any public incentives.

Also in Milwaukee, the 450 million 32 story 1.5 million sq ft Northwestern Mutual Tower was built with 50 million in incentives.

The new super green $400 million 800,000 sq ft 32 story Tower at pnc plaza in Pittsburgh was built without any public incentives.

Baltimore’s new mixed use 25 story $160 million Exelon Tower was built with 41 million in incentives.

You can find many other examples from peer cities such as Sacramento, Nashville, Cleveland etc where cities get much larger developments for less public incentives. KC still has the most absurd corporate handout I have seen anywhere in the country with the Cerner campuses, especially the Banister one with its secured private single use office park and surface parking lots. I mean the public can’t even drive through it.

KC will get a 10-15 story building with just enough space for W&R for 65 million in incentives plus probably a lot more with city incentives. It's not about the height, it's about the missed opportunity.

So I think it’s fair to be a little disappointed with this development. It’s great that a local company is finally moving downtown, but when you follow national development like I do, I was just hoping for a bit more based on similar types of moves I have seen. Again, I’m glad they are moving. I’m glad Cerner didn’t leave the metro too I guess…

I agree wholeheartedly. However, those other cities do not have the interstate competition. Kansas urban golf course buildings and downtown KC created a perverted incentive competition.

[GRID]

^ Yes, I get that and that will forever haunt KC. It does not only affect development, but things like transit too. KC has the bus sytem of a city half its size because well, half the metro is in another state. Imagine if the entire city had a truly comprehensive bus system. Then it would and should be the same number of buses and similar ridership as say Milwaukee or Columbus. Or even better, rail between Jackson and Johnson Counties. Never going to happen though.

[KCPowercat]

Is it the same level of incentives or are those incentives more like direct monies to build? Just wondering if this is apples to apples.

[flyingember]

However, those other cities do not have the interstate competition.

Lots of cities have interstate competition where the downtown is close to the same distance away from a different state

For example,
St. Louis, MO
Omaha, NE
Memphis, TN
Louisville, KY
Cincinnati, OH
Savannah, GA
Chatanooga, TN
Philadephia, PA
Providence, RI

[normalthings]

13th and Grand has been moved to Copaken’s ”Current Development Page.” Other projects on the page are things like CS Station 2 (lease up stage), Reverb (under construction), and Strata (firm development plans).

Other historically vaporware projects like the Kauffman Tower, 1034 Main Tower, and Jenkins Condos are not on this list.

[horizons82]

They're referring to it as " iconic building would consist of a 10-story, 320,000 square feet – including 270,000 square feet of office/hotel and 50,000 square feet of retail. It would also include 1,300 below-grade parking spaces."

https://www.copaken-brooks.com/our-prop ... 3th-grand/

In the video on that page, there's the super block of 13th & Grand & the former BOE building block. Twister Tower sits on 13th & grand's side, while the other half shows a complex that seems to come close to meeting the above description. Could Copaken be flipping the layout for expediency with W&R? Lower-rise at 13th & grand, with the twister tower still in a holding pattern...but now at the BOE site?