Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes »

bspecht wrote: In today's article: "In 2017, VanTrust Real Estate was granted the development rights. Since then, the firm founded by the late wealthy businessman Cecil VanTuyl has been acquiring the remaining properties in the East Village area and now controls about 85 percent of the land."
What do you think VanTrust would pay to have a stadium located in the middle of their property? Do a joint venture between VT and the Royals. City agrees to upgrade streetscape and provide TIF for all properties in the district, VT donates land for stadium and a significant payment ($250m?) towards stadium construction, Royals invest similar amount knowing it will see increased revenue in ticket sales and likely ASG.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:30 pm
flyingember wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:47 pm I see a stadium being funded primarily with tax dollars.

There won't be any condos either.
I don’t really think it would pass this time, for a lot of reasons.
I think 250,000 people showed up in 2015 for the world series event and even a vague threat of losing the team would bring out voters you don't see ever. Team fans would register to vote for this one thing. Never underestimate how much personal civic pride is tied up in a sports team.
beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:00 pm What do you think VanTrust would pay to have a stadium located in the middle of their property? Do a joint venture between VT and the Royals. City agrees to upgrade streetscape and provide TIF for all properties in the district, VT donates land for stadium and a significant payment ($250m?) towards stadium construction, Royals invest similar amount knowing it will see increased revenue in ticket sales and likely ASG.
Did you seriously expect a company to spend money buying land, give it for free AND pay for the stadium too? Why would they ever do that?

The stadium + an entertainment building like St. Louis has wouldn't in the middle of their property, it would effectively be all of their property. It's the stadium or not the stadium there, there's practically no middle ground.

I would expect them to be paid and they pay nothing to answer your main question. They own the land, they have all the power in the equation right now to tell the Royals no and do something else. If the city wanted the power they would have bought the land themselves.

Unless they are given equity in the team and they actually want this, I see this idea never happening.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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flyingember wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:10 pm Did you seriously expect a company to spend money buying land, give it for free AND pay for the stadium too? Why would they ever do that?
Easy, because if you give up half your land but the remaining land that you own around the stadium would be worth a huge amount more and also gives you the easy ability to develop it and make even more money. How much more is a lot next to a NFL stadium worth than an empty lot that hasn’t been able to be developed for decades? 10x? 20x?
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:20 pm
How much more is a lot next to a NFL stadium worth than an empty lot that hasn’t been able to be developed for decades? 10x? 20x?
Not that much, you don't gain 10-20x economic value from something that doesn't happen 347 days of the year.

Looks like 0.1 to 1x increase is the most likely.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/ ... t-1642144/

The Royals have way more games but the stadium is still not used 80% of the year. There's other events but they don't fill much time.

The Sprint Center is a good example. It has been one of the busiest arenas in the world in terms of ticket sales (actual people) and yet there's still empty parking lots across the street from it a decade later.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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The parcels don't necessarily gain more development value from having a baseball stadium there. They likely have more value from multiple, adjacent blocks with dense, mixed-use buildings providing retail, office space, and residential. Depending on how many blocks would be devoted to stadium-related purposes, you will end up having a big dead zone for several months of the year with little to no street activity. This, versus having those blocks filled with people moving about going to work, their apartments, and visiting restaurants and stores.

Having a busy downtown year-round also attracts visitors, residents, companies and new workers from the suburbs and out-of-state.

In addition, stadium-related blocks will likely not provide any property taxes if they are owned by Jackson County. The deal will likely include allowing the Royals' ownership to divert sales taxes back into the stadium to pay for construction, amenities (parking), and maintenance.

So the question is, will filling those blocks with dense, mixed use properties provide the City / County more tax revenue long-term than a stadium would?

I'm not necessarily opposed to locating the stadium adjacent to downtown. I just worry about creating more dead zones inside the Loop. There are several: around Bartle Hall, the federal building, and the Jackson County Jail.

The other issue is whether Kansas City can hold on to a major league baseball team. What happens when the new owner dies? What if no local enthusiast billionaire is available to buy the team to keep it here? Fifteen years from now someone might buy the Royals and move them to Austin, Texas. If that happens, what will be done with a baseball stadium sitting empty inside the Loop?

Below is one previous plan done by Pendulum Architects for the East Village.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by chaglang »

FangKC wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:23 am So the question is, will filling those blocks with dense, mixed use properties provide the City / County more tax revenue long-term than a stadium would?
If it’s typical of the rate of return on small scale developments vs large, multi-parcel developments, the answer is yes. And taxpayer would likely not have to subsidize the mixed use properties - or not at the rate that the stadium would be.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by taxi »

I don't pay much attention to this issue and haven't read through this entire thread, but wonder why I've never heard anyone suggest Columbus Park for a stadium? I think there is 6 to 9 acres assembled and awaiting development.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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taxi wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 am I don't pay much attention to this issue and haven't read through this entire thread, but wonder why I've never heard anyone suggest Columbus Park for a stadium? I think there is 6 to 9 acres assembled and awaiting development.
You're talking about the housing authority land at 4th and Harrison. It's about 6 acres, the stadium is about 12.

Would need to buy 10 acres of land from Laclede Gas to get a plot with the right dimensions
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by alejandro46 »

CP is a quiet residential neighborhood. I suspect the thing the last thing neighbors would like is a huge stadium. Furthermore, there would be minimal density that could spin off of a stadium development.

Sorry to beat a worn drum, but (ideally rail along 31st and/or Linwood) transit to Truman along with a Ball Park Village type development and renovations to add additional suites at the K is my preferred option.
Last edited by alejandro46 on Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by UrbanKC »

When talking about locations downtown if the city decides the best decision is to move them there. Then the East Village seems to make the most sense to me. Considering a stadium on the smaller side, such as Target Field; it could easily fit just northeast of the Fed Building. That location, 19th and Oak & the Riverfront seem to be the only locations that make sense.

The problem that I see with a downtown stadium is that sports facilities are almost purely "commuter" oriented. Meaning that the majority of attendees would be driving in; especially since our mass transit system isn't put to par. Sprint Center was one thing, but a baseball stadium would bring at least twice the amount of people; and therefore twice the amount of cars. Baseball games can also be both during the working hours and in the afternoon/evening hour. So Downtown would have to be able to absorb that amount of cars while also supporting the 100k+ workers parking downtown.

The question should then be: Do we want 10-12 acres of our city core eaten up by a stadium, with more acreage eaten up by additional parking garages?

Are the economic benefits and "tourist" benefits enough to outweigh the drawbacks of having a giant chunk of downtown taken up by a stadium megablock and even more parking garages? Just food for thought...
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

UrbanKC wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:50 am When talking about locations downtown if the city decides the best decision is to move them there. Then the East Village seems to make the most sense to me. Considering a stadium on the smaller side, such as Target Field; it could easily fit just northeast of the Fed Building. That location, 19th and Oak & the Riverfront seem to be the only locations that make sense.

The problem that I see with a downtown stadium is that sports facilities are almost purely "commuter" oriented. Meaning that the majority of attendees would be driving in; especially since our mass transit system isn't put to par. Sprint Center was one thing, but a baseball stadium would bring at least twice the amount of people; and therefore twice the amount of cars. Baseball games can also be both during the working hours and in the afternoon/evening hour. So Downtown would have to be able to absorb that amount of cars while also supporting the 100k+ workers parking downtown.

The question should then be: Do we want 10-12 acres of our city core eaten up by a stadium, with more acreage eaten up by additional parking garages?

Are the economic benefits and "tourist" benefits enough to outweigh the drawbacks of having a giant chunk of downtown taken up by a stadium megablock and even more parking garages? Just food for thought...
This is why I like the idea of going a little further out and stick it in Paseo West, right along US 71.

It will be highly accessible by bus, we already want to lay track down Indep Ave or 12th St someday, it would have outstanding access via freeway without people needing to head into the loop and it wouldn't take a prime downtown spot away from anything else while kickstarting development towards the east sides.

An 18th/Vine spot would be similar

It wouldn't have a great seat view of downtown but I could see doing some suites that have a front-back view so you can see downtown on one side and the game on the other as well as a beer garden and the like on the west side.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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The consensus seems to be to place the stadium where it won’t impact any Raggers’ immediate surroundings but is relatively nearby, should they choose to visit.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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chaglang wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:02 pm The consensus seems to be to place the stadium where it won’t impact any Raggers’ immediate surroundings but is relatively nearby, should they choose to visit.
I don't buy this. I think the consensus is that there will be a city funded stadium that will be surrounded by surface parking with no clear future development.

If someone wants to change that, I believe they know how to reach everyone. I could see this site getting between a few different sites.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by KCPowercat »

Build it next door to my condo!
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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WoodDraw wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:04 am
chaglang wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:02 pm The consensus seems to be to place the stadium where it won’t impact any Raggers’ immediate surroundings but is relatively nearby, should they choose to visit.
I don't buy this. I think the consensus is that there will be a city funded stadium that will be surrounded by surface parking with no clear future development.

If someone wants to change that, I believe they know how to reach everyone. I could see this site getting between a few different sites.
That was a sardonic response to the posts saying that a stadium would be a huge mistake in the CBD but hey, sticking it east of downtown sure would be convenient.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by KCPowercat »

I think it has to go in the CBD. Maximize our parking garage and streetcar investment. I like the idea of bridging the gap between crossroads and 18th/vine I just don't think it makes the most sense.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by earthling »

KCPowercat wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:47 am I think it has to go in the CBD. Maximize our parking garage and streetcar investment. I like the idea of bridging the gap between crossroads and 18th/vine I just don't think it makes the most sense.
Placing at end of Riverfront streetcar line would still utilize all garages along the line, including CBD to Union Station.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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This is Kansas City though.

All joking aside it is a good point and people are beginning to figure this out.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by earthling »

We need to stop making decisions that accommodate bad habits and make decisions that alter habits for a better bigger picture.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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Agree
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