GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by TheLastGentleman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:34 am

Keep it away from the north loop, please

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grovester
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by grovester » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:51 am

Yes, besides the aforementioned dead zones, I really don't want to reward the land bankers.

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chaglang
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by chaglang » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:13 pm

Crossing off dead zones and landbankers really doesn’t leave many options, lol.

Seriously, why not the North Loop?

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by TheLastGentleman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:54 pm

It would create a barrier between the CBD and the River Market, would almost certainly require the demolition of some buildings, would drop a massive dead superblock into the middle of what should be the core of downtown, would eliminate a section of Baltimore, would block off Wyandotte entirely from the river market, would require massive parking essentially guaranteeing that the overwhelming collection of parking garages in the area will never go away (and would likely increase!), would be out of character with the residential nature of the surroundings and would discourage removal of the north loop because of the highway access.

Most cities with downtown stadiums seem to have placed them at the fringes of their downtowns and for good reason. The north loop site would probably be the deepest a stadium has been allowed into a downtown.

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chaglang
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by chaglang » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:51 pm

TBH none of that sounds appealing anywhere downtown. What’s the harm in leaving the stadiums where they are?

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beautyfromashes
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by beautyfromashes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:51 pm

chaglang wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:51 pm
TBH none of that sounds appealing anywhere downtown. What’s the harm in leaving the stadiums where they are?
Synergy.

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chaglang
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by chaglang » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:48 pm

Hmmm. The list of reasons to avoid a stadium in the North Loop seemed to have some synergistic potential - with none of the downside of 100-loss seasons.

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GRID
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by GRID » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:43 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:34 am
Keep it away from the north loop, please
Yeah, I can't believe anybody would want to put the stadium in the North Loop area. That would ruin what will probably become a very hot neighborhood over the next decade connecting downtown to the river market.

People need to go visit any urban ballpark and walk around it a few blocks when a game is not going on. They are just massive dead zones for blocks, even in the most built up urban locations. The riverfront doesn't make sense either. May as well just leave it where it is.

IMO, the only place worth moving the stadium to would be near the 18th and Vine area or in the east crossroads. The east village might work, but then it would just be surrounded by highways and government buildings. The east loop really needs something that will bring it some 24hour life, not a sports venue that make parking lots more valuable. You put a stadium there and watch, nothing will go up around it. Parking will be too profitable. It will be like the stadium in Houston. Do like San Diego or Denver or Minneapolis and find a spot adjacent to downtown, not anywhere near the center of it.

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chaglang
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by chaglang » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:36 pm

The area around Fenway Park is pretty active.

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StL_Dan
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by StL_Dan » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:02 pm

I haven't been to Wrigley yet. What is life during non game hours around that area?

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by alejandro46 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:17 pm

StL_Dan wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:02 pm
I haven't been to Wrigley yet. What is life during non game hours around that area?
It's generally active; there are a huge number of apartments and bars around that area. Wrigley is hundred years old so it's formed organically along with the stadium vs. a stadium plopped down on a vacant part of town and hoping that growth forms later on.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by WoodDraw » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:08 pm

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the problem with a downtown stadium is that the land around it will have more value as surface parking than as apartments or infill.

The city should be very, very careful.

earthling
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by earthling » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:11 pm

^Generally agree. Get free bus going and if it takes hold metro wide, then consider a downtown stadium. Otherwise place to outskirts of downtown, such as at Paseo bridge and Front St.

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KCDowntown
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by KCDowntown » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:15 am

I view a downtown ballpark as a once in a lifetime opportunity, and one that our city needs to capitalize on. I understand some of the skepticism, but this is an opportunity to bring 21,000 people downtown 81 times a year(this is avg per game attendance since 2000), and show our city off on television sets all around the country or world for that matter. I don't think we can pass that up. In my opinion, isolating the stadium somewhere is the exact opposite of what we should be doing.

I took a look at google maps and provided an overhead view, a representative streetview, and listed how the adjacent land was used for every stadium in the Major Leagues. If we want to build a stadium downtown and not have it be a dead zone clearly there's got to be a right way and a wrong way to do it.

Overall, a couple of newer stadiums stood out to me, San Francisco was just perfect. San Diego was very close to an existing entertainment district, and pretty well integrated into the city, but still had an overabundance of parking, Cincinnati surprised me because they are close to the city center, and only built 1 garage from the looks of it. Denver surprised me because it was still surrounded by a lot of parking, yet gets tons of love for spurring LoDo development (I've never been there so this is not coming from experience). Minnesota's stadium was really shoehorned in there in an almost tortured way, that limited its benefit. Seattle was very disappointing, and Florida was flat out nuts.

The takeaways for me is if you don't want the stadium to be a dead zone build it next to something already active, have transit connections, surround it with smaller parcel development. If you surround it with garages you are minimizing the benefit of putting it downtown.

If I were to rank the sites that had been throw around in this discussion I'd go in the following order: Jackson County Jail site, Washington Sq Park, North Loop, East Village, 18th & Vine area, Riverfront. As far as the amount of land you'd need FYI, Wrigley Field fits in a 650ft square, Target Field fits in a 750ft square.


2017, Atlanta Braves - Suntrust Park, Streetview
  • Built in a suburban entertainment/office district - clearly not what we would want or applicable. Like putting our stadium in the middle of Zona Rosa. No transit.
2012, Florida Marlins - Marlins Park, Streetview
  • This is wild, they dropped this stadium in the middle of a residential neighborhood, put 4 massive parking garages around it and called it done. No transit. Let's not do this.
2010, Minnesota Twins - Target Field, Streetview
  • Surrounded by parking garages, surface lots, transit center, and highways. About a 4-5 walk block from Nicollet Mall. Really only two streets on the grid get to stadium from city/
  • Transit - Has a transit connection on far side of stadium
2008, Washington Nationals - Nationals Park, Streetview
  • 60% of adjacent land is parking or garages, 20% apartments, 20% new development. Only north, northeast side of stadium looked like active city.
2006, St. Louis Cardinals - Busch Stadium, Streetview
  • 50% of adjacent land is parking or garages, 25% highway, 25% Ballpark Village. Really would only be active on one side of the stadium, and considerable less when something wasn't going on
2004, San Diego Padres, Petco Park, Streetview
  • Adjacent to Gaslamp Quarter, 45% adjacent land for parking, 15% highways/train tracks, 40% existing development. Doesn't look like it is isolated from the city. Served by light rail nearby.
2004, Philadelphia Philllies, Citizen's Bank Park, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking
2003, Cincinnati Reds, Great American Ball Park, Streetview
  • 25% river, 25% new development, 25% arena, 25% highways. 2 block walk from downtown, only 1 parking garage nearby. Disconnected from city by a couple of blocks and a highway, but not very far. Served by streetcar 1 block away.
2001, Milwaukee Brewers, Miller Park, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking
2001, Pittsburgh Pirates, PNC Park, Streetview
  • Half mile walk across a bridge from downtown, served by subway/light rail, surround by 30% parking, 25% river, 25% new development, 20% existing development
2000, Detroit Tigers, Comerica Park, Streetview
  • 70% parking garages/surface parking, 20% arena, 10% existing development. Looks to be in the city, but on an island
2000, Houston Astros, Minute Maid Park, Streetview
  • 50% parking, 25% new development, 25% existing development, served by light rail
2000, San Francisco Giants, AT&T Park, Streetview
  • 15% parking, 15% new development, 50% existing development, 20% ocean. Really nicely integrated into the city.
1999, Seattle Mariners, Safeco Field, Streetview
  • Sandwiched in between highways, train tracks, and a convention center in a semi-industrial area. Served by light rail. About a half mile from the actual city by foot.
1998, Arizona Diamondbacks, Chase Field, Streetview
  • 70% parking, 10% convention center, 20% new development.
1995, Colorado Rockies, Coors Field, Streetview
  • 60% parking or highways, served by light rail, 20% new development, 20% existing development
1994, Cleveland Indians, Progressive (Jacobs) Field, Streetview
  • 30% parking, 30% highways, 10% park, 30% existing development
1994, Texas Rangers,Globe Life Field, Streetview
  • A lot like Atlanta's, connected to entertainment district, and then a lot of parking. 60% parking, 20% park, 20% new development
1992, Baltimore Orioles, Camden Yards, Streetview
  • 1/3 a mile walk from middle of downtown, 50% parking, 50% existing development
1991, Chicago White Sox, Guaranteed Rate Field, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking
1990, Tampa Bay Rays, Tropicana Field, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking
1989, Toronto Blue Jays, Rogers Centre, Streetview
  • Served by transit, surrounded by development, old and new. Recessed highway to one side.
1973, Kansas City Royals, Kauffman Stadium, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking. 99% parking, 1% Taco Bell
1966, Oakland A's, Oakland Coliseum, Streetview
  • 80% Sea of parking. 20% Oracle Arena
1966, Anaheim Angels, Angel Stadium of Anaheim, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking
1962, Los Angeles Dodgers, Dodger Stadium, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking
1914, Chicago White Sox, Wrigley Field, Streetview
  • 10% parking, 90% existing development, served by light rail
1912, Boston Red Sox, Fenway Park, Streetview
  • 10% parking, 90% existing development, served by light rail
KCDowntown
Last edited by KCDowntown on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chaglang
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by chaglang » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:18 am

I’ve seen a lot of research that says that the economic impact of downtown stadiums is surprisingly limited and becoming more limited. The Royals already work very hard to make sure that the stadium keeps entertainment dollars for food, drink, etc, inside the stadium.

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grovester
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by grovester » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:11 am

I have no faith that KC is the city to pull off a TOD dream stadium.

The best we could hope for is to fall in the middle of that list. Not worth the risk of having that in the cbd.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by brewcrew1000 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:52 am

KCDowntown wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:15 am

The takeaways for me is if you don't want the stadium to be a dead zone build it next to something already active, have transit connections, surround it with smaller parcel development. If you surround it with garages you are minimizing the benefit of putting it downtown.

If I were to rank the sites that had been throw around in this discussion I'd go in the following order: Jackson County Jail site, Washington Sq Park, North Loop, East Village, 18th & Vine area, Riverfront. As far as the amount of land you'd need FYI, Wrigley Field fits in a 650ft square, Target Field fits in a 750ft square.


2001, Milwaukee Brewers, Miller Park, Streetview
  • An all-too familiar sea of parking

KCDowntown
It does have a sea or parking but there are lot bars within walking distance and there are even bars downtown that offer free shuttle service, i love using the shuttle service from these bars because you can drink on the buses and don't have to pay to park, so you have an option to tailgate or drink at bars

Detroit offers this shuttle service as well from the old stadium location

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chaglang
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by chaglang » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:19 am

There's kind of a conundrum: putting it away from a growing downtown entertainment economy will protect that economy from dead spots in the form of parking garages, but that distance will also further minimize any economic benefits to the downtown.

If it's not worth putting in the CBD, the economic benefits are limited, the area around the stadium will likely be populated with parking garages, is it worth it to move at all? Does that calculus change if the city/county is funding some/most of the project?

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grovester
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by grovester » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:37 am

I think the locations need to be vetted with the question, "Will these locations develop without the stadium in a reasonable amount of time?"

North Loop-yes
Riverfront-yes
East Village-no
18th/Vine-no

I haven't heard much discussion about Jackson County Jail or Washington Sq. They are neutral I guess, since they already have a function, though ones that need improvement.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by earthling » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:48 am

^That's a good way to look at it. Though other side of Paseo Bridge along river is game while also mostly likely to have streetcar access before any other expansion. The parking spaces (garages or lots) can also be used as P&R for daytime workers into downtown via streetcar. Multiple benefits.
chaglang wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:19 am
If it's not worth putting in the CBD, the economic benefits are limited, the area around the stadium will likely be populated with parking garages, is it worth it to move at all? Does that calculus change if the city/county is funding some/most of the project?
I wouldn't support a move if JaxCo has to pay for much of it. A mix of external funding, such as rental car tax (like Sprint Center) and higher ticket prices outside JaxCo or MO (depending on level of support) is only way I'd support.

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