P&L District: 14th & Main Site Proposal

[DColeKC]

P&L is also essentially a public/private partnership. If it were 100% private there'd more likely be a different angle to discussing P&L issues/challenges, like Plaza discussions. Cordish reps seem to imply public opinion gets in the way rather than collaborating.

If a site on Plaza didn't lease for 10+ years, unless TIF involved the conversation would be very different than a site that is operated by a private company that was partly built by public funds. Something is very suspect about the spaces that have *never* been leased since opening over 12 years, especially given these spaces are near among highest foot traffic in city now. Smells like exploiting the City aid to me as FangKC spelled out.

Please explain why Cordish would purposely not lease space and how that would be exploiting the city? Even at fully rented, the tax revenues would still fall short of the amount required to not need the city’s help.

I guess I’m not understanding what you’re implying or how Cordish would experience anything positive by not leasing a space. Perhaps this is a larger play to wait on additional space to open up that they could combine to make room for a downtown target for example. The only reason you keep your prices where they are and hold out for the right tenant is planning for the future. Cordish has been leasing commercial real estate for nearly a decade. Can’t imagine they haven’t dealt with about every scenario.

Another item to consider about the 14th/main space is the additional build out cost considerably it’s still dirt floors and bare bones.

[kboish]

I don't take Earthlings comments as to mean Cordish is gaining (receiving something positive) by not leasing the space, but rather, Cordish is not losing (experiencing the full negative consequences of no rentals) as much by not leasing that space because the city's backing of Cordish's investment allows Cordish to hit their returns without maximizing the square footage. I don't disagree with the perception.

That said, counting store fronts that aren't open isn't the same thing as counting square footage. I can see 2-3% vacancy being accurate given the relatively small size of those retail spaces. 2-3% vacancy is the best one can ever hope for in a development like this. From that perspective, I think Cordish's approach for the district hasn't necessarily foregone any revenue that would make any significant difference in the coverage of the bonds. The initial deal was never realistic to produce sufficient revenue.

The vacancy at 14th and main, however, is annoying in its own right because of its high profile location.

[FangKC]

I worked in public affairs for large organizations for many years. I get the tendency to stick up for your employer. But you need to let it go. Anyone who works in public relations learns early on that you need to be able to defend an issue/thing/product, but also turn and take the opposite view and attack the issue/thing/product. Attorneys also learn this skill. You need to do this to understand the weaknesses/strengths of your advocacy. One of the major things a public relations person does for their client is to acknowledge the deficiencies/weaknesses/flaws, and offer corrective action plans. The other thing one does is to recognize what is right about the opposing sides' arguments.

In a situation like real estate development, the criticism is very necessary. It makes everything that is done afterwards better.

Product marketing people hire market research firms that do nothing but find out what people like, but just as importantly, what they don't like.

[earthling]

I don't take Earthlings comments as to mean Cordish is gaining (receiving something positive) by not leasing the space, but rather, Cordish is not losing (experiencing the full negative consequences of no rentals) as much by not leasing that space because the city's backing of Cordish's investment allows Cordish to hit their returns without maximizing the square footage. I don't disagree with the perception.

Was referring to what FangKC pointed out in this post, that when the City subsidizes the property, Cordish doesn't particularly have to try as hard to fill empty spaces. If this were entirely private owned buildings, I doubt space among highest foot traffic downtown would go unleased for 12 years, despite being a raw shell. Not saying directly intentional but highly suspect. Granted the foot traffic didn't jump until streetcar opened a few years ago.

Before BRGR there was a 24hour Canadian diner in the SE corner, which was a great idea. But the food was below average and was before streetcar opened. That could work now at NW corner if better quality (foodie leaning) and with the higher foot traffic. Bigger ticket operators would be someone like First Watch, but they tend to close at 2pm or so and a more unique operator to metro would be more ideal if not a competent local.

[DColeKC]

I worked in public affairs for large organizations for many years. I get the tendency to stick up for your employer. But you need to let it go. Anyone who works in public relations learns early on that you need to be able to defend an issue/thing/product, but also turn and take the opposite view and attack the issue/thing/product. Attorneys also learn this skill. You need to do this to understand the weaknesses/strengths of your advocacy. One of the major things a public relations person does for their client is to acknowledge the deficiencies/weaknesses/flaws, and offer corrective action plans. The other thing one does is to recognize what is right about the opposing sides' arguments.

In a situation like real estate development, the criticism is very necessary. It makes everything that is done afterwards better.

Product marketing people hire market research firms that do nothing but find out what people like, but just as importantly, what they don't like.

I completely understand what you’re saying, I just haven’t seen an argument or criticism of Cordish that I agree with yet. There are several things I could agree with and will when those are voiced. At this point, I’m trying to offer a much needed different perspective.

[earthling]

"I just haven’t seen an argument or criticism of Cordish that I agree with yet." In forum speak, that's called a fanbois.

[DColeKC]

"I just haven’t seen an argument or criticism of Cordish that I agree with yet." In forum speak, that's called a fanbois.

Well, thankfully I don’t care about or speak “forum”. Although I’ve been reading this forum since it’s beginning, I’ve only just signed up to respond. Give it some time, I’m sure I won’t defend everything. In real life speak, that’s called patience.

[earthling]

It means you love the product beyond willing to discuss its faults. Defending beyond what is reasonable, which has been your approach so far. But good to have your insight.

[DColeKC]

I have a laundry list of faults with them, just don’t feel the need to start my own list yet. I’m sure there will be an appropriate time to slide some of them into a relevant conversation.

[earthling]

Good to have you and you'll meld in over time, but be aware some of your posts can come across as a bit arrogant, common when people first start posting here - also case with last Cordish rep here (who did not adjust). And others have pointed out my past attitudes at times too, and I try to adjust. This forum has relatively more reasonable/actionable conversations than other pro-dev city boards.

[beautyfromashes]

Yeah, welcome back! Good to have your insight again on the inner workings of Cordish.

[earthling]

wink

[shinatoo]

Yeah, welcome back! Good to have your insight again on the inner workings of Cordish.

Don't know if this is true, but I've seen strangerthings.

[DColeKC]

Yeah, welcome back! Good to have your insight again on the inner workings of Cordish.

I saw all of that back and forth. I know who that person was and it wasn't me! I also know they left when people on here started trying to play the guessing game and even name dropping. That person actually brought us a wealth of information from this forum until they felt attacked.

As for me sounding arrogant, that's a common theme of a few on here. I take it with a grain of salt because this is the internet and I realize that if these conversations where being had in person, most people on here wouldn't come off the same way they do online.

[earthling]

So let's try getting back to constructive conversation with some ideas for the NW corner of 14th/Main as DCole can respond with the challenges. Traditional merchandise retail is struggling lately due to online shopping so there are a lot of retailers that might not consider. How many sqft available from corner spot?

Some ideas mentioned earlier....
- Target a diner/breakfast type place again similar to FirstWatch, though longer hours. The Canadian one at BRGR spot was below avg and before streetcar but a great concept.
- A radio or TV station studio with views of the street.
- Mellow Mushroom (there's a wide variety of pizza already, though P&L's existing pizza place is played out).
- Pachinko hall

What else would you go for? Looking at Denver 16th St and Minneapolis Nichollete stretches could spawn some ideas that might work. But it is amazing how many fewer merchandise retailers there are now on these stretches compared to 15 years ago. Can understand why P&L wouldn't go for merchandise and instead go for experiences.

[KCPowercat]

Store like Bonobos or other online retailers with physical experiences.

[DColeKC]

Lately, the only physical retail merchandise category doing well is outlet stores. I'm not sure PNL is the fit for outlet stores?

While I was there, both a radio group and TV group were very close to being done deals at that location. Would have been a great fit. A breakfast place is much needed and agree it needs regular hours. Frans was just ok and if it wasn't for the late night industry crowd, it would have closed quicker than it did. Now with more residential, it's possible a breakfast place could survive.

Target has been in frequent communication with Cordish for years but the overall space isn't there yet and Target really has the upper hand.

[kboish]

A TV or Radio studio would be awesome for 14th and main. I remember whispers of that of the past several years. Too bad it hasn't come to fruition.

[kboish]

It would have been cool to see the axe throwing place go into 14th and main. The minimalist buildouts they do would have been perfect for the "dirt floor" state of the space. Fun for passer-byers to watch.

[earthling]

A studio would be great. Downtown Minneapolis has a Bonobos and Nordstrom Rack, though Plaza has a new Nordstrom in works.

How many sqft available for this spot, also if tying in next door spots as well not leased.