Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by earthling »

There have been many CC proposals the last couple decades that haven't come to fruition. Where's the beef? Skeptical until fully funded.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by TheLastGentleman »

As this forum understands better than anyone else, renderings mean very little until construction actually happens (and even then!)
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

atticus23 wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:20 pm
normalthings wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:04 pm Two million SF of mixed-use development in a walkable setting, including over 750,000 SF office, 50,000 SF retail, and 1.2 million SF multi-family housing. Prepared by Goody Clancy for Crown Center Redevelopment Corp.
Image

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Where’d you find this?!?
Crown Center Redevelopment Corp hired a design firm this year that created this. I believe the plan is still to involve other developers. Both Block and NGZ have been brought in within the last 2 years
Last edited by normalthings on Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by Highlander »

Wow. A big jump into the residential sector for CC. They were early pioneers of urban living in KC but they've done nothing since then. Just office. I would expect anything they develop to carry a pretty big price tag. It would actually be a great place to live. I have at times envied the residents of the San Francisco tower.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

Highlander wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 am I have at times envied the residents of the San Francisco tower.
I did until I saw their HOA fees.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by FangKC »

It doesn't appear to be a commitment. It's just a master plan. A vision for what could be done. Found on the Goody Clancy website:

https://www.goodyclancy.com/projects/cr ... -planning/

My feedback. Ditch "Dan Kiley Park" on the north side of 27th between Grand and Main (see link) Put a building there. The real estate is too valuable to waste on a grassy park across the street from a much bigger grassy park. It's also along a streetcar corridor.

Also ditch the "plaza" on the NE corner of 27th and Grand. Build that building right up to the sidwalk. It's okay to have wide sidewalks that would allow outdoor tables next to cafes. Make the 27th and Grand intersection more like the 27th and Warwick intersection.

Make the building on the SE corner of 27th and Main taller. Again, prime real estate on streetcar line with arguably what would be some of the best views in the City from high floors. A mixed-use building with office on lower floors and condos on upper floors would work well.

The building on the north side of 27th between Warwick and Grand needs to be 7-stories, not 4-stories. All apartments on the south side of that block need to have balconies. It wouldn't hurt to use bay windows protruding out into the street as well. Those two attributes would create texture.

Please stop with the corner garages on both sides of Warwrick and 26th Street. Put garages on the interior of the block and wrap them with buildings. Stop creating unnecessary dead zones.

I do like the intersection of 27th and Warwick though.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by WoodDraw »

Crown center does these master plans on a fairly regular basis. I'm not going to take this too seriously until something is announced or reported on at least.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:34 am
Highlander wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 am I have at times envied the residents of the San Francisco tower.
I did until I saw their HOA fees.
I was looking at the penthouse in SF Tower a few years ago. Amazing space, huge deck overlooking DT and Liberty Memorial. Modern kitchen. Started at $1.5m and literally got down to $50k. Confused until I saw that the HOA fees were $10k/month.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:55 am
normalthings wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:34 am
Highlander wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 am I have at times envied the residents of the San Francisco tower.
I did until I saw their HOA fees.
I was looking at the penthouse in SF Tower a few years ago. Amazing space, huge deck overlooking DT and Liberty Memorial. Modern kitchen. Started at $1.5m and literally got down to $50k. Confused until I saw that the HOA fees were $10k/month.
I remember that too. There is demand for a new condo tower in CC or downtown. In fact, one has been in the works for CC for a while. Hopefully it gets going during this economic cycle.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by earthling »

The HOA fees for 2 bedroom with most higher end Downtown/Plaza condos is about $800-$1200/month depending on range of amenities. On the higher end for San Fran Tower.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

FangKC wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:20 am It doesn't appear to be a commitment. It's just a master plan. A vision for what could be done. Found on the Goody Clancy website:

https://www.goodyclancy.com/projects/cr ... -planning/

My feedback. Ditch "Dan Kiley Park" on the north side of 27th between Grand and Main (see link) Put a building there. The real estate is too valuable to waste on a grassy park across the street from a much bigger grassy park. It's also along a streetcar corridor.

Also ditch the "plaza" on the NE corner of 27th and Grand. Build that building right up to the sidwalk. It's okay to have wide sidewalks that would allow outdoor tables next to cafes. Make the 27th and Grand intersection more like the 27th and Warwick intersection.

Make the building on the SE corner of 27th and Main taller. Again, prime real estate on streetcar line with arguably what would be some of the best views in the City from high floors. A mixed-use building with office on lower floors and condos on upper floors would work well.

The building on the north side of 27th between Warwick and Grand needs to be 7-stories, not 4-stories. All apartments on the south side of that block need to have balconies. It wouldn't hurt to use bay windows protruding out into the street as well. Those two attributes would create texture.

Please stop with the corner garages on both sides of Warwrick and 26th Street. Put garages on the interior of the block and wrap them with buildings. Stop creating unnecessary dead zones.

I do like the intersection of 27th and Warwick though.
I’d rather see something of reasonable size get built(10-15 floor) soon than wait another 50 years for a 25+ floor
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by FangKC »

KCMO has had two 20+ story towers go up recently in the P&L District. Cordish is planning a 32-story next, and then another 25-story tower. In addition, Copaken and H&R Block are planning a 25-story (Strata).

I don't think it will take 50 years to put up a tall tower at 27th and Main. Crown Center has been able to attract and hold office tenants better than has the Downtown Loop. A 10-story at that location just seems a waste.

That location arguably has potentially some our city's best views from the upper floors, sits on the future streetcar extension, and near shopping. Those features make it more attractive than One Park Place, at 31st and SW Trafficway, which is isolated. In addition, there are well-paying jobs in walking distance.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by TheLastGentleman »

FangKC wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:22 pmKCMO has had two 20+ story towers go up recently in the P&L District. Cordish is planning a 32-story next, and then another 25-story tower.
What's the 25-story?
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

FangKC wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:22 pm KCMO has had two 20+ story towers go up recently in the P&L District. Cordish is planning a 32-story next, and then another 25-story tower. In addition, Copaken and H&R Block are planning a 25-story (Strata).

I don't think it will take 50 years to put up a tall tower at 27th and Main. Crown Center has been able to attract and hold office tenants better than has the Downtown Loop. A 10-story at that location just seems a waste.

That location arguably has potentially some our city's best views from the upper floors, sits on the future streetcar extension, and near shopping. Those features make it more attractive than One Park Place, at 31st and SW Trafficway, which is isolated. In addition, there are well-paying jobs in walking distance.
(1) 4 Light being downsized to 25 floors would be a sign in my book that CC won’t see 20+ floor development soon.

(2) The 10 story design change reflects Crown Centers goal of creating a lively neighborhood quickly. They’d rather build out the remaining lots with moderate density than slowly add 20+ floor towers for the next 50 years.

(3) Why not build something moderately sized with the capability of supporting a future vertical addition?
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:05 pmWhy not build something moderately sized with the capability of supporting a future vertical addition?
Because it'll likely never get built on, as evidenced by the other three examples of that development strategy in this city. 1034 has been a garage since what, the late 80s? UMB HQ was built in the mid 80s and never saw its tower completed, and has looked too short ever since. It took over a decade for strata to even get proposed.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:47 pm
normalthings wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:05 pmWhy not build something moderately sized with the capability of supporting a future vertical addition?
Because it'll likely never get built on, as evidenced by the other three examples of that development strategy in this city. 1034 has been a garage since what, the late 80s? UMB HQ was built in the mid 80s and never saw its tower completed, and has looked too short ever since. It took over a decade for strata to even get proposed.
Further proof the demand just isn’t there.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by FangKC »

So, in the next 10 years, you think no tower of size can be built there? Even with the streetcar line extended past that parcel?

Since the last residential tower was built in Crown Center (in 1976), more law firms have moved to Crown Center. The Federal Reserve Bank was built across the street. Children's Mercy Hospital is going to be adding hundreds of medical research jobs in its' new tower. No demand for premium housing with great views around Crown Center?
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by kcjak »

Understand this is just a plan, but...have to agree with Fang that a park at 27th/Main, adjacent to a streetcar stop and directly across from a larger park doesn't make a lot of sense. There's potential for a really vibrant area on 27th street under this plan, but it's like they completely gave up on 26th, which would become a dead zone of parking garages.

Wonder if there will be any outcry from Union Hill residents whose views would be blocked even more with taller buildings?
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:13 am So, in the next 10 years, you think no tower of size can be built there? Even with the streetcar line extended past that parcel?

Since the last residential tower was built in Crown Center (in 1976), more law firms have moved to Crown Center. The Federal Reserve Bank was built across the street. Children's Mercy Hospital is going to be adding hundreds of medical research jobs in its' new tower. No demand for premium housing with great views around Crown Center?
3000 research jobs in the CM tower, probably close to 3500 jobs overall when you include support positions

The new building will be 375,000 square feet. One KC Place by comparison is about 865k.

3000 people is enough to drive demand for at least one new residential tower
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by kenrbnj »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:55 am
normalthings wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:34 am
Highlander wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 am I have at times envied the residents of the San Francisco tower.
I did until I saw their HOA fees.
I was looking at the penthouse in SF Tower a few years ago. Amazing space, huge deck overlooking DT and Liberty Memorial. Modern kitchen. Started at $1.5m and literally got down to $50k. Confused until I saw that the HOA fees were $10k/month.
>> These HOA fees are comparable to those paid by folks in South Florida; living in high rise developments (ask how I know..) The hidden expenses of these residences are that residents are paying for commons areas, which include the elevators (big money), roof and window maintenance, parking garages, etc.

I too looked at the San-Fran-Tower and had been put-off by the HOA levels.

My suspicion is that the infrastructure maintenance of Crown Center would have been diluted by more residents; had the other children of San-Fran tower materialized. There had once been an architectural model containing three total high-rise towers.
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