Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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earthling
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:26 am

Given streetcar is more heavily used on weekends by bridge/tunnel crowd visiting city core, is clear that many tourists/metro will make a Downtown/Westport/Plaza daytrip every weekend. It will also be used for local service for midtowners just as used for local service downtown. Many will also be willing to deal with the frequent stops for the longer hauls given it's free to ride. But would rather see bus along same line where one offers express and other offers local service, doesn't matter which. A Waldo to Barry Rd along N Oak true express MAX line that runs along streetcar (at least through midtown, Grand downtown) would be great.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:32 am

ToDactivist wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 pm
Sorry I just dont see someone taking the streetcar from UMKC to the RM when uber or maybe even Bird would be faster. And as far as this serving the Plaza I challenge that even more. If someone were even on that side of the Plaza and if they wanted to transverse both Nichols then Main to get on a streetcar to go where? Try this in real life, walking across both intersections maybe with your holiday shopping bags or w/o. Just dont see the value other than long term developer opps along the line. Am sure I am wrong. Am hopeful I am wrong.
1. Main MAX carries 4,500 trips per day. Add that to the 6,000 daily average for the downtown streetcar, remove the fare, speed up the trip even more (remove several stops that MAX serves plus better signal priority and level boarding), then add rush hour capacity (larger vehicle). There's the math you can bank on.

2. Most people arriving at the Plaza by transit today are going to work, not to shop. It's a dense job center already well-served by transit.

3. An Uber might be faster (gotta build in that wait time), but it's also ~$10 when it's not surging. A Bird would not be faster -- I'm assuming you've tried one on a hill? -- but regardless would cost you at least $3-4 and of course you have to find one when you need one. The sweet spot for scooters is ~1.5 miles, and that's pretty standard in every market thus far.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by scooterj » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:13 am

FangKC wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:09 pm
I see UMKC students using the streetcar to save money going out with friends. I remember how broke I was as a student. I would rather have spent cash on that instead of Uber, or gas for my car. There are also movie theaters for students to frequent downtown (Alamo, Screenland). I also see convention visitors using it in both directions, and the convention people say it's made a huge difference in attracting convention business. The more people we get to use public transit when frequenting bars the better.

This... Uber is way too expensive for college kids to use on a regular basis. A single uber trip downtown is a month's supply of ramen. ;)

Even though we all had cars, when I was a UMKC student we would always walk to the Plaza, it just seemed stupid to us to waste gas money driving someplace that was only a mile away. Oftentimes we would take flashlights and use the Brush Creek tunnel (my age is showing) to avoid all the street crossings, as the route wasn't quite as pedestrian-friendly back in those days as it is now. If we were there for shopping instead of a movie, we'd walk back with all our bags. Same as we'd do with our groceries when we'd walk to the old Pig-Wig. The point being, people who are Plaza tourists are going to walk the entire plaza with all their shopping bags, they already do. So they won't have any issue with walking one more block to get to the streetcar.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by ToDactivist » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:28 pm

Autonomous mass transit may save the day and for KC it might be a good thing to be late again. Streetrain sans rails on preset routes are easy for AI and of course flexible to change route based on demographics, daily events (games, festivals, etc). Worth considering. China already using this. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/tech ... ore-iphone

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:50 pm

ToDactivist wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:28 pm
Autonomous mass transit may save the day and for KC it might be a good thing to be late again. Streetrain sans rails on preset routes are easy for AI and of course flexible to change route based on demographics, daily events (games, festivals, etc). Worth considering. China already using this. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/tech ... ore-iphone
I'm assuming you're referring to the trackless train vaporware, a la the straddling bus that was debunked?

Image

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... =SFTwitter
Operators are behind the wheel for now [late 2017], but the idea is that they won’t be needed by the time the city builds a network larger than the 3.1-kilometer test track, a dedicated lane on a heavily trafficked boulevard.
Don't confuse driverless car hype with autonomous buses in revenue operation. The latter is far less developed, surprisingly, and US transit agencies are hamstrung by "Buy America" provisions that prevent us from buying such Chinese-produced vehicles even if they were more ahead of the curve than BYD. Even if you did have the right vehicle with a proven safety record you're up against organized labor, even if automation is inevitable in the long term.

Regardless, you will always need a customer service function onboard, just like with airlines and intercity trains. Will a robot bus know when to deploy a wheelchair ramp and at any of the hundreds of variable curbs in the city? Will the robot keep fare evaders from boarding or do we invest millions in off-board fare collection? In a city that struggles to dedicate space right now -- lest we forget the $100 million starter line and $300 million expansion are both mixed traffic -- where will the automated bus be politically capable of stealing space from cars since a dedicated space is required?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by alejandro46 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:07 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:50 pm
ToDactivist wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:28 pm
Autonomous mass transit may save the day and for KC it might be a good thing to be late again. Streetrain sans rails on preset routes are easy for AI and of course flexible to change route based on demographics, daily events (games, festivals, etc). Worth considering. China already using this. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/tech ... ore-iphone
I'm assuming you're referring to the trackless train vaporware, a la the straddling bus that was debunked?

Image

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... =SFTwitter
Operators are behind the wheel for now [late 2017], but the idea is that they won’t be needed by the time the city builds a network larger than the 3.1-kilometer test track, a dedicated lane on a heavily trafficked boulevard.
Don't confuse driverless car hype with autonomous buses in revenue operation. The latter is far less developed, surprisingly, and US transit agencies are hamstrung by "Buy America" provisions that prevent us from buying such Chinese-produced vehicles even if they were more ahead of the curve than BYD. Even if you did have the right vehicle with a proven safety record you're up against organized labor, even if automation is inevitable in the long term.

Regardless, you will always need a customer service function onboard, just like with airlines and intercity trains. Will a robot bus know when to deploy a wheelchair ramp and at any of the hundreds of variable curbs in the city? Will the robot keep fare evaders from boarding or do we invest millions in off-board fare collection? In a city that struggles to dedicate space right now -- lest we forget the $100 million starter line and $300 million expansion are both mixed traffic -- where will the automated bus be politically capable of stealing space from cars since a dedicated space is required?

Proterra (good company founded by ex-Tesla execs, factories in CA and SC) make great American made busses but are $$ due to both manufacturing and raw material costs. Proterra leverage expensive li-on batteries which are unfortunately heavy. They make up for this weight by using carbon composite for the body. We are just at the tip of innovation and market penetration for EV busses. Insanely low operating and maintenance costs, plus combined with quick-chargers no need to have extensive down-time.

I agree, "trackless streetcars" are vaporware.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:37 pm

How does a system that relies on painted lines operate in the winter?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:44 pm

flyingember wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:37 pm
How does a system that relies on painted lines operate in the winter?
Poorly.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by bobbyhawks » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:41 pm

smh wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:44 pm
flyingember wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:37 pm
How does a system that relies on painted lines operate in the winter?
Poorly.
Also, what kind of proximal investment does a painted line attract vs. a fixed rail when the lines can be repainted a few blocks away or erased very cheaply?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:46 am

The next phase of work will be covered by $2 million in surplus funds from the downtown TDD and $1 million from KCATA: https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... nsion.html

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCDowntown » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:08 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:46 am
The next phase of work will be covered by $2 million in surplus funds from the downtown TDD and $1 million from KCATA: https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... nsion.html
What all is involved with the next phase of work that is being funded? Thanks.

KCDowntown

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:32 pm

KCDowntown wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:08 pm
DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:46 am
The next phase of work will be covered by $2 million in surplus funds from the downtown TDD and $1 million from KCATA: https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... nsion.html
What all is involved with the next phase of work that is being funded? Thanks.

KCDowntown
"Project development", so everything up through actual engineering (NEPA, basically).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:38 pm

How many of these decisions are at this phase???

Should curb running keep the existing six lane configuration with part-time bus lanes becoming the track lane or is it better to move to a four lane setup and add all day curb parking?

How do you account for places like 4110 Main which is one big curb cut and people probably back onto Main when leaving some parking?

Do bus stops combine with train stops or stay separate like Union Station?

How should the light cycles change to speed up the train and what does this mean to midtown. Do you implement no left onto Main from 37th and encourage drivers to use 36th?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by dnweava » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:47 am

flyingember wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:38 pm
How many of these decisions are at this phase???

Should curb running keep the existing six lane configuration with part-time bus lanes becoming the track lane or is it better to move to a four lane setup and add all day curb parking?

How do you account for places like 4110 Main which is one big curb cut and people probably back onto Main when leaving some parking?

Do bus stops combine with train stops or stay separate like Union Station?

How should the light cycles change to speed up the train and what does this mean to midtown. Do you implement no left onto Main from 37th and encourage drivers to use 36th?
There should be ZERO parking on main. And the existing parking spots in the crossroads section should be removed and made a bike lane or a planter area too IMO.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:52 am

dnweava wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:47 am
flyingember wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:38 pm
How many of these decisions are at this phase???

Should curb running keep the existing six lane configuration with part-time bus lanes becoming the track lane or is it better to move to a four lane setup and add all day curb parking?

How do you account for places like 4110 Main which is one big curb cut and people probably back onto Main when leaving some parking?

Do bus stops combine with train stops or stay separate like Union Station?

How should the light cycles change to speed up the train and what does this mean to midtown. Do you implement no left onto Main from 37th and encourage drivers to use 36th?
There should be ZERO parking on main. And the existing parking spots in the crossroads section should be removed and made a bike lane or a planter area too IMO.
Sold!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by Darlene » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:56 pm

dnweava wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:47 am
flyingember wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:38 pm
How many of these decisions are at this phase???

Should curb running keep the existing six lane configuration with part-time bus lanes becoming the track lane or is it better to move to a four lane setup and add all day curb parking?

How do you account for places like 4110 Main which is one big curb cut and people probably back onto Main when leaving some parking?

Do bus stops combine with train stops or stay separate like Union Station?

How should the light cycles change to speed up the train and what does this mean to midtown. Do you implement no left onto Main from 37th and encourage drivers to use 36th?
There should be ZERO parking on main. And the existing parking spots in the crossroads section should be removed and made a bike lane or a planter area too IMO.
Now just a minute! If they take away the parking no body can get down there. This is not a big city and people need a place to park.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by Critical_Mass » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:21 pm

How do you block people on here? Asking for everybody.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:55 pm

Critical_Mass wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:21 pm
How do you block people on here? Asking for everybody.
Ask the mods and your wish shall be granted.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by wahoowa » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm

are bans that easy too?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:13 pm

SAVE DARLEN!E

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