OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[swid]

Assuming we're done rehashing "people vote, not property" yet again...when/where can I sign the petition for this plan?

[DaveKCMO]

Ok, so the election would be for just those home owners within the newly proposed property tax increase area? What if a home is a rental and owned by someone outside of the area? Does the owner get the vote?

No. You vote based on your primary residence

more accurately, where you are registered to vote. ownership doesn't matter, as with most elections.

[DaveKCMO]

Seems to be taxation without representation, to me. You're charging someone a tax that they don't get an input on.

same for CIDs, school districts where you own property but don't reside, the e-tax, ad nauseum...

taxation without representation is a very narrow subject relegated to the original thirteen colonies and the district of columbia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxati ... esentation

[beautyfromashes]

Assuming we're done rehashing "people vote, not property" yet again...when/where can I sign the petition for this plan?

Sorry you're worried about the discussion. I actually live in the 1/3 mile district and have three rental houses in the district, so this will affect me more than you signing the petition.

[flyingember]

Assuming we're done rehashing "people vote, not property" yet again...when/where can I sign the petition for this plan?

Sorry you're worried about the discussion. I actually live in the 1/3 mile district and have three rental houses in the district, so this will affect me more than you signing the petition.

It might impact you positively more than someone else. You may be able to increase rent more than the taxes imposed because of increased demand to live near the train and come out well ahead of someone that doesn't own rental property.

Your renter may be impacted more than you when you pass the cost onto them from this increased demand.

By that logic your renter should have more say than you should.

You, as a TDD rental property owner could be impacted the least of any group that has property inside the TDD.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Wasn't this discussion about who votes and all also part of the discussion about the downtown streetcar?

[kboish]

Yeah. And I'm pretty sure I was the one having the discussion (i didn't start it ) .

Sorry if it is annoying to anyone, but it seemed worth while to go ahead and get a civics refresher out there as this thing kicks off anew.

Go ahead and stop me if it comes back up again during this expansion round...but no promises if we have another expansion beyond this one

[flyingember]

Wasn't this discussion about who votes and all also part of the discussion about the downtown streetcar?

The Air Filter lawsuit was over the same subject too.

[beautyfromashes]

It might impact you positively more than someone else. You may be able to increase rent more than the taxes imposed because of increased demand to live near the train and come out well ahead of someone that doesn't own rental property.

Your renter may be impacted more than you when you pass the cost onto them from this increased demand.

By that logic your renter should have more say than you should.

You, as a TDD rental property owner could be impacted the least of any group that has property inside the TDD.

So, rents already go up in the area about 5%/year. I don't see how anyone would think that, just because my costs go up, that the demand would be able to justify the increased rent. Someone renting now isn't even going to be in the house when the train comes online in 2022+. There's no value to them that would justify an additional increase.

[KCPowercat]

Assuming we're done rehashing "people vote, not property" yet again...when/where can I sign the petition for this plan?

Sorry you're worried about the discussion. I actually live in the 1/3 mile district and have three rental houses in the district, so this will affect me more than you signing the petition.

Congrats, your property value will go up on 4 places.

[KCtonic]

fwiw - my River Market property value has gone up much more than the property tax increase. And even if it had not, the added mobility and functionality the streetcar gives me in my neighborhood is totally worth it to me as a resident and property owner.

It would be really nice to see a future line connect to KU Med as well. That would connect the two major campuses and downtown to the streetcar.

[swid]

Assuming we're done rehashing "people vote, not property" yet again...when/where can I sign the petition for this plan?

Sorry you're worried about the discussion. I actually live in the 1/3 mile district and have three rental houses in the district, so this will affect me more than you signing the petition.

I live downtown, so I'm currently paying the property tax indirectly through my rent. In addition, I'm an investor in a real estate company that owns multiple midtown residential rental properties, and I can't think of any indirect action that will raise those properties' valuations and rental income streams more than extending the streetcar through midtown.

[flyingember]

So, rents already go up in the area about 5%/year. I don't see how anyone would think that, just because my costs go up, that the demand would be able to justify the increased rent. Someone renting now isn't even going to be in the house when the train comes online in 2022+. There's no value to them that would justify an additional increase.

That little a rate increase.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurengensl ... er-cities/
Citywide it was 8.5% annual increases in recent years.

You need something to come into the neighborhood and increase demand. You could get more out of your properties if this happens.

[taxi]

These types of whining and arguments always make me say, "That's life in the city." You live in the city, you buy property in the city, you will be subject to tax increases and special assessments. And change. Embrace it or move to the suburbs or country.

[beautyfromashes]

Call it whining or arguing if you'd like. For most, there really isn't a question. You, like me, want the streetcar... but you'll pay no additional property taxes for that benefit. For me, there's a much larger decision, even more than the direct financial cost. I have to think about my neighbors. Will the single old lady that you complained about taking too many resources be able to afford the new additional cost on a fixed income. Will she be forced to move from a house that she raised her family in and lived in for 40 years? Will all the poor families be forced out because they can't afford the additional rent? Will the unique small businesses give way to corporate ones. Will it maintain a neighborhood feel or will condos and large developments fill empty lots and torn down residences? While the mixed demographic turn uniformly young and white?

[chingon]

I wouldn't characterize your tone or concerns as 'whining', or presume to know your motivation, but what you are suggesting is a short-sighted, ill-considered and dangerous affront to the principal of one person one vote.

Perhaps a better way for you to think about your neighbors is to consider their electoral power and authority as sacrosanct, as yours is, and to not suggest usurping it because you own more property than they do.

[pash]

.

[flyingember]

So I see beautyfromashes has given up on the I-don't-understand-the-most-basic-aspects-of-how-property-taxes-work-in-this-country angle and switched to pure FUD. At least the conversation is progressing. ...

beautyfromashes, are you /u/elbr on Reddit?

No, they cover distinct things. elbr is way more out there.

[beautyfromashes]

No, I'm suggesting that this is a false basis of democracy when you poll an area to determine what the outcome of an election will be, carve out a district to get the desired outcome that you want and then pile the cost of a benefit for the entire city on a small group of individuals who might not be able to afford it with no foresight into whether it will have negative demographic consequences on that neighborhood.

[flyingember]

Call it whining or arguing if you'd like. For most, there really isn't a question. You, like me, want the streetcar... but you'll pay no additional property taxes for that benefit. For me, there's a much larger decision, even more than the direct financial cost. I have to think about my neighbors. Will the single old lady that you complained about taking too many resources be able to afford the new additional cost on a fixed income. Will she be forced to move from a house that she raised her family in and lived in for 40 years? Will all the poor families be forced out because they can't afford the additional rent? Will the unique small businesses give way to corporate ones. Will it maintain a neighborhood feel or will condos and large developments fill empty lots and torn down residences? While the mixed demographic turn uniformly young and white?

If it passes I will pay more in sales taxes on many purchases. As will a lot of people that don't get to vote on the tax.

I would love to see the numbers but I bet throug midtown and the plaza the sales taxes will way outdo property taxes. The plaza alone will do this.

Midtown is going to switch over to condos and apartments no matter what is done. The transition is already underway.

Sure, the streetcar will accelerate this but you're talking about an inevitable switchover to mixed use. And this is how this older woman and poorer families will be able to stay in the neighborhood. Because your 5% annual rent increases is well above pay rate and social security check inflation right now. You are forcing them out.

you cannot support single location locally owned businesses without a certain population density. Notice how retail works best in low density suburbs where there families with kids and not in suburbs that have gone majority retired couples. This is why so much of Prospect is empty storefronts or chain right now. You need that woman to move out of her home and have a family move in to support local retail.

What you want relies on density and density is driven by not needing a car because lots of parking means low density. This can be a bus for people. To actually get development this is a streetcar. The bus has covered this neighborhood for decades with only a slow decline. It's not working to get you what you want.

You think you want to keep the neighborhood the same. Instead you want to tear down your home, buy the one next door. Tear it out and put up a small four plex building and support income restricted units. And you don't want to need parking because that's space for another unit you could make money off of without needing 5% rate increases to afford to rent them.