Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

[chingon]

So where are the jobs?

Wallstreet and the defense industry, aka, the right wing welfare state.

[KC0KEK]

Wallstreet and the defense industry, aka, the right wing welfare state.

But I thought that there were all of these shovel-ready infrastructure jobs, too. What happened to that spending?

[chrizow]

I would actually argue something quite different, which is that there has never been any widespread support in the political class for the American working class (or the purely rhetorical "middle class" as its now so quaintly called), but rather that the advances that working people have made in this country have ALL -- as in 100% -- come from pressure-tactics employed by the organized portion of the working class. Corporatist politics is merely the latest evoltion of a system of oligarchy that is more or less a natural consequence of unchecked hierarchical governance.

In most western and northern European countries (until the modern era at least) the working class has traditionally been represented by a labor party that engaged in coalition-style governing with centrist and other leftist parties. In America, that route was foregone in hopes that an unbalanced alliance with the Democratic party would allow labor to advance its goals within the framework of the 2-party state.

That alliance has had pretty limitted success, but the biggest gains for working people, the fairest wealth distribution across the sprectrum, and -- pay attention right-wing regurgitators -- the most prosperous times for the nation as a whole, all correlate with the aftermath of vocal and disruptive periods of labor agitation. Periods that themselves normally followed cycles of wealth concentration and disrepect for working people of the sort we are currently mired in.

this.  yes.  thank you.

i know that our government has not exactly ever bent over backwards trying to help working people, but as you say, due to their own massive efforts, the working class in this country used to have a "voice."  and some politicians at least listened to that voice.  the modern republican party has used fear, xenophobia, and, somehow, "socialism" and other empty economic rhetoric, to get these people to vote for THEM. 

don't get me wrong, i am not a democrat or hold out much hope that the democratic party is too much more divorced from wall st. (vs. main st.) than the republican party.  we really do need a multi-party system.  i would love to see a labor party (and, hell, why not, an actual tea party) to counteract the infuriating two-party system.

[KC0KEK]

he asked his cousin to discuss why norwegians were seemingly okay with paying such high income tax rates - in this case, the woman said she pays approximately 50% in income taxes.

Not all Europeans are okay with high rates: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/busin ... 03880.html. Neither are some Australians: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/specia ... 6054252790.

[chingon]

But I thought that there were all of these shovel-ready infrastructure jobs, too. What happened to that spending?

A half century of the right wing's overt, premeditated, malicious and intentional degradation of the ability of governments to perform their proper functions puts a bit of a kink in the system.

It's like shooting someone in the foot and then saying, "Look, that guy can't run fast. Why should we waste a perfectly good pair of shoes on him?"

[chrizow]

Not all Europeans are okay with high rates: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/busin ... 03880.html. Neither are some Australians: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/specia ... 6054252790.

re: the danes:  not surprising.  but there doesnt seem to be any huge opposition to it, or you would have been able to find much more recent articles containing much more broad-reaching data.  but sure, i am willing to grant that nations containing millions of people will evince some diversity of opinion.  likewise, you can find probably tens of millions of americans who espouse liberal ideas (whether they realize it or not).

re: the australians - the herald sun is a very conservative tabloid owned and operated by news corp.  i'm not saying there aren't australians who share your views on taxation, but i am just saying that is a pretty poor source.  

[pash]

.

[chingon]

Not all Europeans are okay with high rates: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/busin ... 03880.html. Neither are some Australians: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/specia ... 6054252790.

Dude, the Herald Sun? Seriously. A Newscorp Aussie tabloid? What does the Enquirer say about taxes?

[KCMax]

Through much of the 20th century, working class rights were represented by Democrats, many of which were southern Democrats, who were perhaps less than progressive on social causes like civil rights (think Huey Long). The Republican Party was more pro-business and lower taxes, but represented both social conservatives in the Midwest and social liberals in the Northeast. FDR first began the shift, wanting a true liberal/conservative dichotomy, but it wasn't really until the Civil Rights movement that working class Dems began to split over the issue of racial politics. In the 70s, as the national Dem party began to adopt more identity politics platform issues, southern Dems began to bail, and Reagan was able to give them a landing spot, even though his "trickle down" philosophies didn't exactly help them. That has continued to this day. I think we're going to see another shift pretty soon, as the GOP wrestles with its libertarian wing vs. its religious right. The Tea Party kinda trascends that, and I'm not sure if the Tea Party has any kind of staying power, but my guess is it gets co-opted by the libertarians and they abandon many of the social issues which could give rise to a third party perhaps.

[grovester]

But I thought that there were all of these shovel-ready infrastructure jobs, too. What happened to that spending?

Haven't you been on a highway the past 2 years?

[KC0KEK]

re: the danes:  not surprising.  but there doesnt seem to be any huge opposition to it, or you would have been able to find much more recent articles containing much more broad-reaching data.

Ah, I see. Your recent travel show provides a much more accurate picture than my three-year-old NYT article. Thanks for setting me straight. It's pointless to provide you with more examples because you'll just dismiss them as being too dated or from a source you don't agree with.

[KC0KEK]

Haven't you been on a highway the past 2 years?

Yes. Many roads are now nice and smooth. But unemployment is still high.

[chrizow]

Ah, I see. Your recent travel show provides a much more accurate picture than my three-year-old NYT article. Thanks for setting me straight. It's pointless to provide you with more examples because you'll just dismiss them as being too dated or from a source you don't agree with.

no, i agree completely that there are people in euro countries who do not appreciate the high taxes and strong government.  i am saying that these people must be the minority, b/c there isn't any real movement i am aware of to change it.  

there is a pretty strong conservative movement in most euro countries now, but it is more based on anti-immigration and xenophobia than economics.  in america, our right-wingers are both xenophobic AND anti-govt/taxes.

that said, my citation to a random quote on freaking rick steves' europe was not meant to be some sort of empirical evidence of the scandanavian zeitgeist (though it may well be) but rather i enjoyed the simplicity of it as contrasted with the usual soundbite you hear from americans.  you, on the other hand, tried to use a tabloid article and an old NYT article as "evidence" - which is fine, but don't get mad when someone calls out the source, esp. the herald sun!

[NDTeve]

A half century of the right wing's overt, premeditated, malicious and intentional degradation of the ability of governments to perform their proper functions puts a bit of a kink in the system.

It's like shooting someone in the foot and then saying, "Look, that guy can't run fast. Why should we waste a perfectly good pair of shoes on him?"

[phuqueue]

Highlander actually lived in Norway so I'm sure he has some particularly worthwhile insight into common attitudes on taxation in Scandinavia and throughout Europe if he's reading this thread, but I've spent several months a year here for the past few years and can say for my part I've never, not a single time, heard anybody complain about their taxes.  I have encountered lots of Europeans from lots of different countries who are completely bewildered by our health care system, the cost of education, the Tea Party in general, etc etc etc (and also by lots of social issues, like the death penalty, hostility toward gay marriage, etc, but that's not really for this thread).  In America there's this distrust of the government that at times seems to border on paranoia, and for the most part that just doesn't seem to exist in Europe, at least in my experience.  People seem to be much more aware of the relationship between the taxes they pay and the services they receive in return (whereas you get people at Tea Party rallies who don't want the government involved in Medicare -- what???).  Even though chriz's anecdote was just one person (and from a TV show, no less), I think it's relatively representative of the majority attitude, at least as I've observed it.  People are content to pay into the system and trust that they'll receive useful, high quality services in return.  In the US all you ever hear is how the government can't do anything right.  It's just a fundamentally different attitude about what role government should play in society.

Re: high unemployment despite government spending: it's pretty widely agreed by those who support stimulus at all that the stimulus we got was far too small to make a difference.  It was a wash at best, might have kept us from taking on any more water but not enough to pump out what we already had.  This doesn't mean stimulus in and of itself is the wrong idea, although the GOP has adopted exactly this view.  You do something half-assed, you can't be surprised by half-assed results.

[KCMax]

this is a very simplified anecdote, but i thought it was fairly enlightening.  

on a recent episode of rick steves' europe (a pretty educational travel show on public television where rick, the author of the famous travel guides, showcases a particular city or region in europe), he went to oslo.  he met up with a cousin there and they went boating around one of norway's many fjords.  

I saw that too. What I was struck by was how Norwegians EXPECT good governance (Steve alluded that they almost revere it like a religion) and stress citizenship. Whereas I think here we almost expect bad governance and have a disengaged citizenry that can hardly be counted on to even vote. I know its a culture thing from our more libertarian independent cowboy roots, but I'm sure there is an impact when half of the political conversation is how bad government is - well you'll get bad government.

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

-PJ O'Rourke

[Highlander]

this is a very simplified anecdote, but i thought it was fairly enlightening.  

on a recent episode of rick steves' europe (a pretty educational travel show on public television where rick, the author of the famous travel guides, showcases a particular city or region in europe), he went to oslo.  he met up with a cousin there and they went boating around one of norway's many fjords.  

in a rare example of rick discussing the political stance of the subject country, he brought up the famously high tax rate (on income and otherwise) in scandanavian countries like norway and explained that it is a function of the culture to believe in a strong but well-managed government.  he also mentioned the very strong support and reverence for farmers and the working class (which of course was true in america until relatively recently).  in exchange for their high taxes, norwegians receive world class cultural institutions, transit systems, medical care, education, etc.  .

he asked his cousin to discuss why norwegians were seemingly okay with paying such high income tax rates - in this case, the woman said she pays approximately 50% in income taxes.  her response was the following:

"yes, we pay a lot in taxes, but we expect much from our govt - and we receive a lot.  we have free education through the university level, free excellent healthcare, and very healthy retirement benefits.  so while we pay a lot from our paychecks, we are almost entirely free of the anxieties revolving around medical expenses, whether we can retire, whether we can pay for our childrens' college educations."  etc.

for a huge portion of this country, concerns about paying for health care, education, retirement, etc. cause tremendous anxiety and stress.  so why aren't people clamoring for a similar tax rate - and, of course, a similarly high expectation (and performance) from govt?  i for one would gladly pay a 50% tax rate to have free education through the graduate school level, free medical care, retirement benefits, etc.  obviously the welathy would have a problem with this, b/c they can afford all those things with the current tax rate, but the lion's share of americans would vastly benefit from this - with the added benefit that even with the higher tax rate they would be much more free to pursue interests, spend time with family, etc.  why aren't people demanding this?  if it's just that people think "govt is evil," that is just retarded.

obviously it's a bit more complex than this, but i thought that the norwegian woman's rather casual insight revealed a very profound truth.

Norway is not a particularly good example of high taxation and a successful socialist state.  What's unique about Norway is low population coupled with tremendous oil/gas wealth (along with being a massive provider of hydroelectric power to Europe).  That allows them to have government that offers and provides everything the population wants from government without the headaches that less wealthy but equally tax happy countries have to endure (e.g., Britain, where education is no longer free).  Norway has wealth and, unlike many other countries with oil wealth, they have managed it extremely well.  The same is not true for France, Britain, Spain and a myriad of European countries that have similar philosophies.  Norwegians do complain about taxes, most just consider them a fact of life.  They are also not ostentatious in the slightest sense so even though individual wealth exists, they don't go in much for expensive cars and mansions etc....  Their culture plays right into the economic system they have. 

I think in the US, we have a culture that pretty much wants discretion over how money their money is spent.  Given the choice, most people want less taxes and the ability to spend their money on how they deem fit rather than give to the government to take care of their retirement, education etc...  And that viewpoint is held pretty strongly by more than just the wealthy.  There are plenty of Europeans who immigrate to the US to exercise that choice.  We are a nation of immigrants that came here for economic opportunity, it's not surprising the overwhelming cultural attitude is conservative and acceptance of personal responsibility (for one's self).  For certain, the exploding costs of education and medical, particularly the latter, are making many people rethink the issue but most Americans simply want to keep the bulk of their income so they can choose the manner in which it is spent.  That's ingrained in our culture to such a high degree, it would take generations to change it. 

I'm certainly not opposed to paying higher rates on money I earn over a certain amount, although I think folks here need to be extremely cautious about who they call "wealthy"....  wealthy is absolutely not an income, it's a combination of assets and age.  I certainly do not want to be paying 50% of any income that I could feasibly made to tax, but if they raised the 250-1,000,000 per year rate top tier to 38%, I do not see how that would be to big of an issue.  As others have mentioned, the first 250k is taxes at a lower rate.  But, a Norway system?....we could never offer what Norway offers even with a 50% or higher tax rate.  We've squandered our opportunities to do that.   

[Highlander]

Highlander actually lived in Norway so I'm sure he has some particularly worthwhile insight into common attitudes on taxation in Scandinavia and throughout Europe if he's reading this thread, but I've spent several months a year here for the past few years and can say for my part I've never, not a single time, heard anybody complain about their taxes.  I have encountered lots of Europeans from lots of different countries who are completely bewildered by our health care system, the cost of education, the Tea Party in general, etc etc etc (and also by lots of social issues, like the death penalty, hostility toward gay marriage, etc, but that's not really for this thread). 

See my response to Chrizow.  Norway is too unique to be a model for any country with a population the size of the US.  4.5 Million people and the world's biggest exporter of hydroelectric power, 6th biggest exporter of oil, 3rd biggest of gas.  And they've managed all that wealth exceptionally well.  Norwegians are taxed heavily but they get a lot in return.  If they were still dependent on herring, I doubt if the benefits would be so great but oil wealth does a lot for them such as funding universities, public transportation and infrastructure, public health care (but like the UK, private medical insurance is a growing industry in Norway) and probably most importantly, pensions (although I don't think they kick in until 67).  They are also encourage to spend because large bank accounts are taxed on the principal which keeps the money flowing.  Cars are hugely expensive, again due to taxes, but most families manage to afford one.  Alcohol prices are outrageous due to taxes (11$ per beer) but drunk driving is non existent; people just don't drink as much even though the bars are packed on Saturday nights.

People do complain about taxes though. It's not a preoccupation like the US but most Norwegians will privately tell you they pay too much in taxes for their own taste...but they will never do anything about it, it just isn't part of their culture (although surprisingly, I found the Brits to complain bitterly about taxes).  Norwegians have way more trust in their government than Americans have (again it's only 4.5 million people) and they are far more monocultural than we are (immigrants are there and, obviously, there is a backlash, but I found it remarkable how "Norwegian" the immigrants could become).

[loftguy]

 
We've squandered our opportunities to do that.   

Great input, as is usual Highlander.

Your final quote, though, is most spot on.  I believe this recognition, whether overt or subliminal, is the root of the anger rising amongst Americans.  Whether personal or governmental, the frustration over wasted opportunity and the inherent inability to now correct,  is manifesting in discord. 

It's difficult to blame ourselves, and someone has to be to blame.

[phuqueue]

See my response to Chrizow.  Norway is too unique to be a model for any country with a population the size of the US.   4.5 Million people and the world's biggest exporter of hydroelectric power, 6th biggest exporter of oil, 3rd biggest of gas.   And they've managed all that wealth exceptionally well.   Norwegians are taxed heavily but they get a lot in return.  If they were still dependent on herring, I doubt if the benefits would be so great but oil wealth does a lot for them such as funding universities, public transportation and infrastructure, public health care (but like the UK, private medical insurance is a growing industry in Norway) and probably most importantly, pensions (although I don't think they kick in until 67).  They are also encourage to spend because large bank accounts are taxed on the principal which keeps the money flowing.  Cars are hugely expensive, again due to taxes, but most families manage to afford one.  Alcohol prices are outrageous due to taxes (11$ per beer) but drunk driving is non existent; people just don't drink as much even though the bars are packed on Saturday nights.

People do complain about taxes though. It's not a preoccupation like the US but most Norwegians will privately tell you they pay too much in taxes for their own taste...but they will never do anything about it, it just isn't part of their culture (although surprisingly, I found the Brits to complain bitterly about taxes).  Norwegians have way more trust in their government than Americans have (again it's only 4.5 million people) and they are far more monocultural than we are (immigrants are there and, obviously, there is a backlash, but I found it remarkable how "Norwegian" the immigrants could become).

Yeah, I should probably clarify I've never even been to Norway itself (or the UK, for that matter), much less spent significant time there, so I can't really speak any more intelligently about the specifically Norwegian perspective than chrizow was able to, but the anecdote he told more or less reflects the experiences I've had with people from various other European countries.  I don't think anybody really likes paying taxes, so it's not surprising that people will complain from time to time, but I haven't personally encountered it (granted, in far less time here than you've spent).  Usually when Europeans try to engage me in socioeconomic/political discussion, it's out of some morbid fascination with how backwards the US seems to them.  It basically becomes an interview, they want to hear as much about it as I'm willing to tell, but it's just because it's so different from what they know.  They seem to be pretty content with what they've got, even if they don't have it quite as nice as Norway does (eg, most Europeans still have to pay for school, albeit a fraction of what we pay in the US).  That's my impression, anyway.