Loose Park vs. Penn Valley Park

[FangKC]

Yes, but there a large sections that are heavily wooded and rocky.

[brewcrew1000]

There was a time when the park, and in particular the area around the Mall, was the place to score pretty much whatever you wanted. Crack? Smack? 15-year old twink? No problem. You pretty much didn't go up there after dark unless you were selling drugs, buying drugs, or looking for anonymous gay sex / prostitution. The cops never seemed to be much of a problem. I hear this is no longer the case, though.

People also forget that Central Park was landscaped to have diverse topography. 

Didn't Central Park have a bad reputation as well. It was unsafe for you to walk through it in the middle of the night and things like that?

[FangKC]

Central Park is mostly safe during the day. You can't discount a rogue criminal doing a mugging in park that large, but NYC is one of the safest cities in the USA.

That said, it's not wise to walk in Central Park at night.  A group of guys could probably walk across the park at night, but a woman jogging alone in the park at night is not to be recommended.  There are just too many places for people to hide and not be seen in time.  It's hard for police to patrol the park at night because there are just too many places that are too far from roadways, and the police don't walk the park at night.

[mean]

I've never encountered problems in Central Park, day or night. Never got very deep into the park at night, though. It's kind of intimidating.

[rxlexi]

  I'm one of the few that believes PVP is an incredibly under-utilized asset.  If nothing else, the views are expansive and beautiful, and it provides a large amount of greenspace right downtown. 

  The eastern section fo the park has improved quite a bit with the dog park, WW1 Museum and Fed building.  Dog park is VERY well-used.  Let's see more "unconventional" uses like this.  AJoD, I would recommend heading to that side of the park and walking/running the path that winds its way around the Pioneer Mother statue and joins up with Lib Memorial Mall for an idea of the park space and "what could be" up there.

  The western side of the park is messed up.  Just poorly maintained, sketchy, with bad connections all around and Broadway rushing through next to the rocky bluff.  Desperately needs to be re-worked.  Broadway needs to be dramatically altered to encourage only slow-moving traffic, and a pedestrian bridge or stoplight added for ease of ped crossing. 

  I would like to see the pond and sorrounding land restored into some very cool wetlands with native plantings, and perhaps have a small boathouse with cafe overlooking the skyline, and paddleboat/canoe rentals a la the old Swope boathouse or Forest Park in StL.

  The topography is perfect for some cool hiking and mountain biking trails (single track) right in the middle of the city.  I would LOVE to see this happen; it would be relatively cheap and easy to do with volounteers, like the Earthriders trails at Swope.  Probably the best and most simple upgrade possible that utilizes the hilly, otherwise unusable chunks of parkland.

  Any type of dense development along the edges would be beneficial.  The old Trinity site is hideous and could be turned into some unique if it's ever finally cleared or restored or whatever.

  Finally, getting to real dreaming now - PVP has become a park of monumental architecture with Lib Memorial, IRS, Fed, etc.  I think a massive, signature fountain, up near the Pioneer Mother on the flat ground opposite Lib Memorial and Fed, would be awesome.  KC needs such a fountain anyway (City of Fountains with a big, signature fountain nowhere to be found?), and I think a location in PVP would be at the top of my list if we ever get around to funding such a thing...

 

 

[mlind]

PVP would need amenities to draw people and it needs to be safe.  There is a regional park in the hills behind Berkeley CA.  Mostly hills, but attractions in the flat areas.  Playground, a 'little farm' with animals for kids to see, an environmental center, early 20th century merry-go-round, steam train that was developed by volunteer train buffs, botanical garden, nature area, and lots of undeveloped areas.  Then there are hiking trails, bike trails, picnic areas.  Very heavily used. 

It might be a model for what could be done with PVP. 
http://www.ebparks.org/parks/tilden

[slimwhitman]

This is a great thread.  PVP could be such an amazing asset to the KC metro….but it’s not.  Definitely a diamond in the rough….very rough.  There have been lots of good comments here, so I will comment on other’s posts:

half of PVP should be developed with residential.

Maybe not half, but there is some rational to the idea that PVP is bigger than it needs to be with huge wasted edge areas that serve no purpose other than as a place for city mow crews to waste away their day for unusable lawn.  Bring in residential to the edge of the park to help it gain local users and more eyes to watch over the park.

PVP is not really that accessible, it's kind of hilly and the park is separated by a busy street.  parking is not as good as Loose Park.  You also don't really have a whole lot of destiny or housing immediately around the park, PVP was basically just an worthless piece of land that could not be developed and that’s why it was probably dedicated as a park.

People like flat parks; hilly and odd shaped parks do not tend to be that successful.

The key to the future success of PVP is building good connections into the park from dense residential adjacent to the park.  Currently, the park is bordered mostly by edges.  Edges that promote separation of it from adjacent uses.  It is a remote island in the middle of the city.  It is OK that the park is hilly.  That provides a lot of interesting areas to see and walk around.  Someone wanting to throw a frisbee or have a picnic can find lots of places in PVP to do that.  It does not need to be flat unless the goal is to fill it with soccer/baseball fields.  Loose Park is used this same way.

We have so many beautiful parks in this city, but people will drive for miles to go to Loose Park.  Why is that?  The city needs to make the parks safe, clean, and with the same attractions for all the people.  Why does PVP not have a spray park?

I do not think the park needs to be loaded with amenities to be a good and well used park.  Sure, you need a few playgrounds, a shelter or two, some picnic tables and a walking trail, but anything beyond that is just extra.  Though I think the “safe and clean” part of your comment is the clincher.  If PVP felt safe and clean, then people would flock there.  Having more legitimate users using the park, attracts more legitimate users to the park.  People feel safe when they know others are nearby to hear their scream.  I was on the rooftop park over Constentino’s in P&L with my wife on Monday.  We were the only ones up there and it was a bit creepy.  We felt all alone and a bit vulnerable.

The topography and layout of PVP is completely different than LP.  LP is basically a flat square mile surrounded by an exercise trail.  PVP is not. 
It's ripe for redevelopment.  But, comparing PVP to LP is like comparing a strip mall in Independence to the Plaza. 

LP & PVP are quite different in topography, but they can be used in the same way.  LP is intended for passive use, not for organized sports.  Same with PVP.  Redevelopment of portions of the edge of PVP could go a long way to helping the park get used more often, creating a safer place that would encourage even more regional users.  I think the two parks are more similar than you give them credit.  They differ because of the surrounding uses and restrictive roads around them.  If SW Trafficway, Broadway and Main were quant two-lane roads like Wornall near LP, things would be a lot different.

I live within walking distance of PVP as well but we always us Loose Park.  I also think PVP had a bad reputation in the 80's and 90's and people still might be afraid of the park. 
I also know a couple people who recently had their car broken into at the PV Dog Park.

I have a female friend that lives downtown and drives to LP to jog.  She feels safest there.  There is no way she jogs in PVP….or Mill Creek Park.

As for safety at PVP, I have seen security industry statistics that shows that crime around the Plaza and the Nelson Atkins are actually higher than at PVP.  This is because PVP is surrounded by highly secure properties with security forces and site cameras(Fed, IRS, WWI Museum, Crown Center).  The World War Museum has not had a car break-in for a long, long time.  The safety concerns are actually a perception problem, not a real problem.

I'm not from here, and I visited PVP here to take a look around. I parked by some statue that appeared to be an Indian scout looking over the West Bottoms. I could see a lot of the park from Penn to Summit, and also the section across from Penn Dr to Penn Valley Dr. I walked around back by the tennis courts and up to 31st. I couldn't make heads or tails of what this land was supposed to be for, or could be repurposed as.

When people talk about what an underutilized jewel PVP is, I get that it's not stellar, but I really have a hard time seeing what it could be. Is the big lawn between the Liberty Memorial and Union Station, where the fireworks are on Memorial Day, part of the park too? I guess that just seems more like a big lawn, and would be cool with some Jens Jensen style landscaping.

But when I think of the "not-so-safe" big city parks of Chicago, say, like Humboldt or Garfield, PVP just strikes me as too divided by streets and natural barriers to do anything like that.

It's hard for me to understand what people are talking about. Is there someplace that I should go within the park to better appreciate its potential?

This is a great post.  I feel the same way about PVP.  What the hell the its purpose?  It is surrounded by barriers and it has no internal path/road circulation hierarchy for users to get a feel for where to go or how to move around on the site.

Penn Valley Park is the most underappreciated asset in the central city--in what it could be.  It's just configured badly, and desperately needs to have the roads and streets reworked to provide more connections.

Indeed, development should be focused on the streets and neighborhoods around the park. There are plenty of areas adjacent to the park that could be redeveloped with high-rise apartments with views of the park.

But for that to happen, a makeover of the park needs to happen.  The City doesn't have the money to do it, so there needs to be a friends of the park campaign with benefactors donating money to make improvements.

PVP does have an attraction: the Liberty Memorial and WWI Museum.  However, that is not enough. People don't go to the memorial and museum and use the park.  So, PVP needs another attraction.  I think the first thing that needs to be done is relandscaping of the park to add more to the visual aesthetic.  It needs more ornamental trees, shrubs, and bushes. It needs to be more like a botantical garden. This would use the topography as an asset. People forget that Central Park is on very diverse topography.  There also should be an indoor conservatory.  Making the park prettier year-round and adding the ornamental trees would create beautiful views that people would pay for.

Broadway needs to be changed from a speedway back into slow-moving parkway. People blast through the park and create danger and havoc to any pedestrian.  There's no need for it.  The connection to I-35 should also be removed. It brings too much fast-moving traffic into the park.

There are plenty of areas around the park that could be redeveloped with high-rise apartment buildings. The west side of Southwest Trafficway has run-down old houses that could be removed and replaced. The whole West Side South neighborhood could be rebuilt and made very dense.  There are several sites along 31st Street where high-rises could be built, and the corner of 31st and Main was considered for one past proposal that never got off the ground.

Crown Center is sitting on several good sites along Main for high-rise apartment buildings that would have great views. I wish there was more of a market for that type of housing.

True about the edges and connections.  Make the edges (SW Trafficway and Main) more pedestrian friendly and allow users on the other sides of those arterials to cross into the park.  Broadway….needs to go away, or be throttled down into a slow moving park amenity drive.  I am shocked at how crappy Kessler Drive feels.  This should feel like an important park accessway that connects PVP to Union Station and Liberty Memorial.  Instead, it feels like a marginal back ally.

Development opportunities abound, but need to be planned in order to benefit to park.  The miserable Trinity Hospital site is a great start.  How about some housing on the west side of the park, south of the old BMA tower (One Park Place)? 

I am not too concerned about throwing a ton of money at the park itself with new landscaping and other fancy features.  I think that fixing the roads around PVP and connecting the neighborhoods around it will fix most of the problems.  LP would still get plenty of use if the rose garden did not exist.  Add that fancy stuff later.  A park-wide path system with a clear hierarchy would be an important improvement, though.

The eastern section of the park has improved quite a bit with the dog park, WW1 Museum and Fed building.  Dog park is VERY well-used.  Let's see more "unconventional" uses like this.  AJoD, I would recommend heading to that side of the park and walking/running the path that winds its way around the Pioneer Mother statue and joins up with Lib Memorial Mall for an idea of the park space and "what could be" up there.

  The western side of the park is messed up.  Just poorly maintained, sketchy, with bad connections all around and Broadway rushing through next to the rocky bluff.  Desperately needs to be re-worked.  Broadway needs to be dramatically altered to encourage only slow-moving traffic, and a pedestrian bridge or stoplight added for ease of ped crossing. 

  Any type of dense development along the edges would be beneficial.  The old Trinity site is hideous and could be turned into some unique if it's ever finally cleared or restored or whatever.

  Finally, getting to real dreaming now - PVP has become a park of monumental architecture with Lib Memorial, IRS, Fed, etc.  I think a massive, signature fountain, up near the Pioneer Mother on the flat ground opposite Lib Memorial and Fed, would be awesome.  KC needs such a fountain anyway (City of Fountains with a big, signature fountain nowhere to be found?), and I think a location in PVP would be at the top of my list if we ever get around to funding such a thing...

The eastern side does have good “bones”, but is poorly connected for the pedestrian.  There should be a stellar connection down Kessler to Union Station, but it hurts in its ugliness.  The legitimate users related to the ball fields, the dog park and the museum are helpful for adding a secure feel to that side of the park.  The jogging trail is a good thing, but parts of it are oddly placed and feel uncomfortably forced.  Why the 200’ jog on the east side of Kessler, only to cross back over?...weird!  I ditto your comment on the Trinity site!

As for monumental additions to the park…sure a few would be nice, but I don’t think the success of the park relies on them.  It already has several great monumental pieces to work with.  Liberty Memorial being the biggest one in the city.

[KC-wildcat]

west side of PVP needs a disc golf course. 

[brewcrew1000]

Roanoke Park is another awesome yet underutilized park in the middle of the city.  There are revitalization efforts underway to fix that park up as well.  I saw somewhere it mentioned that Roankoke Park has a cave but it's blocked with stone.  How cool would it be to see that cave open back up and used.

Gilham, and Hyde Park seem to be getting revitalized as well, i've been seeing rugby teams practice at Gilham Park and there was even an effort to start a softball league at gilham.
Gilham and Hyde have some of the density as Loose but both have parking issues and a little sketchiness to overcome.

[KCKev]

Enjoy PV for its green space! The views of Downtown are priceless.

Great sight to compare changes to our great City over the decades.
http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?op=home

enter zip 64108 and zoom out some to see PV Park

[FangKC]

PVP has also lost some uses over time. There used to be a public swimming pool there, but it was taken out for the SW Trafficway and I-35 offramps. There were also 8 tennis courts and a playground.  The pool was never replaced.  It would seem to me that PVP would be a good location for a City athletic facility that would include an indoor pool, exercise facility, racquetball and squash courts, and other facilities.

http://kchistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.p ... X=1&REC=17

Broadway through the park used to have a planted median with trees.  There also used to be Japanese cherry trees that have been lost and not replaced.

http://kchistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.p ... X=1&REC=18

There was a landscaped promenade as well.

http://kchistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.p ... X=1&REC=19

Penn Valley Park was developed and designed to accentuate its' views.

Goats used to roam the rocky crags in the park.

It seems to me that at some point the City just quit trying to improve the park, and just mowed the grass.

[aknowledgeableperson]

PVP has great potential however it is apparent no one can take the lead and get a vision going.  Forget Chastain and his ideas, or almost all of them.  Given what is developing at Crown Center and what is already in place around the park why not build more attractions for tourists, and locals.
A botanical garden
Something like the Della Rose in OP

I am sure there could be other ideas.

[FangKC]

I think it would be in the interest of Hallmark and Crown Center to push the City to improve the park. Having a beautiful park next to their property would only enhance their real estate, and bring more value to any building they might construct, just as exposure to, and views of Central Park, make adjoining real estate much more valuable.

If there was a great botanical garden and conservatory there, it would add another attraction for Crown Center visitors and hotel guests. Central Park is surrounded by hotels.

[chingon]

5 ideas from cheapest to grandest:

1. Pay the people who are doing the Swope trail for free to build a single track mountain bike trail on the west side of park.

2. Paved biking, jogging trail with pedestrain bridges around the entire park.

3. Make Broadway a meandering boulevard following park topography with a bike/ped lane and dedicated transit ROW.

4. Build a big partnerships b/n KCMO Parks Dept., UMKC Environmental Science, Environmental Studies, Biology, Urban Planning and Design, Urban Studies Depts. and MCC's Horticulture, Agribusiness/Grounds & Turf Management programs to create a Western Missouri Native Botanical Garden.

5. "Hamsterdam" (via the Wire).

[KCMax]

Sell parcels of land for development and use the money to build a botannical garden, spray park, security lighting, upgrade landscaping and re-route or bury the streets running through the park.

[kboish]

west side of PVP needs a disc golf course

Yes.

Does PVP have any kind of master plan or steering committee?

Lots of great ideas on here that are very doable.  Is there any feasability to allowing a developer to put up condos/apartments and direct some of the taxes/revenues from this towards park improvements?

[Midtownkid]

I think Broadway is beautiful the way it already runs through the park.  It follows the edge of the outcroppings and meanders a little bit as is.  It just needs a little beautification and possibly a stop light added somewhere.  Repave it, enlarge the median and add more trees/flowers.  Connect the area atop the bluffs with the pond and lower lands to the west via foot bridges that span Broadway.

One thing the park's landscape is missing is an interesting variety of plants.  I realized this walking around DC the other day.  Here, parks have such a great variety of flowers, flowering bushes, flowering trees, ornamental trees, etc.  This adds interest and beauty to the parks.  It doesn't all looks the same.  KC's parks contain too much open 'meadow' space.  This is not interesting or engaging on its own.  You must see something new and interesting in the distance in order to be prompted to explore a park. 

Loose park succeeds in this way however.  There are large meadows there too, but they are book ended by interesting moments.  The different pavilions, groves of trees, and landscape scenes at Loose make it usable.

In Penn Valley, one area that desperately needs some more landscaping is the North lawn of the Liberty Memorial.  The path towards union station would be much more inviting (especially on a hot summer day) of it was surrounded by small shade trees and flowers/bushes etc.  As it stands it's just an open expanse of lawn.  No one wants to walk through that 'desert' on a typical day in July.

[beautyfromashes]

I agree.  There justs needs to be a true entrance to the park at 31st and Broadway, perhaps an arch, designating that it is a park road instead of a speedway.  Do the repaving and astetic changes and then build a nice walking bridge to connect the east side to the westside.  This and some of the other ideas should slow the traffic down and perhaps be a good draw to bring people further into the park.

[KC-wildcat]

I agree.  There justs needs to be a true entrance to the park at 31st and Broadway, perhaps an arch, designating that it is a park road instead of a speedway. 

This is a great idea.  The question is whether this "true entrance" goal can be achieved by emphasizing existing entrances or whether Broadway needs to be transformed. 

Currently, Broadway/Penn Valley Drive cuts PVP in half.  The east side can be accessed at Wyandotte & 31st.  The west side can be accessed by Penn Drive & 31st.

The major concern I see is unifying the two sides of the park.  Currently, EPVP is well established and frequented by visitors.  Still not where it could be, but it is nicely maintained.  WPVP is simply an afterthought with plenty of potential. 

How do we tie the two parks together when a major transit vein runs right down the middle? 

First, Broadway can no longer be a divider.  It must be a park street with lower speed limit.  But, I also think we need to make Broadway the central location for visitors (i.e. sidewalks, running trails, cross walks, stop light, well marked and brightly lit diagonal street parking, shelters overlooking the valley/pond, clean bathrooms, information boots). 

Second, there has to be a reason to go to WPVP.  The Scout is over there, but most don't even know how to get there.  Same thing with the tennis courts and skate park.  The valley and pond is basically just a flood basin.  Simply put, there is no reason to go to WPVP. 

[mlind]

Parks, like the pictures shown of old PVP, were important urban amenities in the 19th & early 20th century. People didn't have the means to travel, so they were a way to spend time in an non-urban environment located within the city.