NHL to Kansas City.....?

[Maitre D]

http://www.geocities.com/nhlexpandreloc ... ities.html

http://mb4.theinsiders.com/fhockeyfrm2. ... 2664.topic

http://obc.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5 ... 3086044571

The 10 most appealing new sports markets
• 1. Los Angeles
• 2. Philadelphia
• 3. Portland
• 4. Orlando
• 5. Houston
• 6. Charlotte
• 7. Grand Rapids, Mich.
• 8. Washington, D.C.
• 9. Las Vegas
• 10. Rochester

The 10 most over extended sports markets
• 1. Phoenix
• 2. Tampa-St. Petersburg
• 3. Pittsburgh
• 4. Kansas City
• 5. Denver
• 6. Milwaukee
• 7. Cincinnati
• 8. Buffalo
• 9. Indianapolis
• 10. Raleigh-Durham

The Best Markets

Los Angeles
Potential league: NFL
Existing leagues: MLB, AFL, NBA, WNBA, NHL, MLS
Los Angeles can’t get its NFL act together. It lost the Rams and Raiders, fell to Houston in the subsequent expansion derby, and still lacks a first-class stadium. But Greater Los Angeles has 17 million residents, and it has enough surplus income for 13 football franchises. If an NFL team were run well, it could easily succeed in L.A.

Philadelphia
Potential league: MLS
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL
Philadelphia, the nation’s sixth-largest metro area, is represented in every major sport but soccer. MLS would be well advised to correct that oversight, given Philly’s ethnic diversity, large television market and healthy economic base. The region’s available income is 11 times larger than the amount needed to sustain the typical MLS franchise.

Portland
Potential leagues: NFL, MLS, NHL, MLB
Existing leagues: NBA, WNBA
The NBA has been in Portland for more than 30 years. The simple question is who will get there next. Portland has more than enough money to support a football, hockey or soccer team, perhaps even two of the three. Baseball might be too pricey, but remains a possibility. Portland would be the best choice to beef up MLB’s presence along the fast-growing Pacific Coast.

Orlando
Potential leagues: NHL, MLB
Existing leagues: AFL, NBA
Orlando is appealing in two ways. The first is that its residents have enough money to comfortably support another team besides the NBA Magic. The second is that Orlando attracts millions of tourists who have even more millions of dollars to spend. The less-costly NHL would be the best fit for the region, but MLB might also take an interest.

Houston
Potential leagues: NHL, MLS
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, NBA, WNBA
The NFL returned to Houston this year, but there's still space available for another newcomer or two. The NHL and MLS are intrigued by the large size of the market, which has 4.8 million residents. Each league believes a distinct group within the Houston area would passionately embrace its sport: Northern refugees for hockey, Hispanics for soccer.

Charlotte
Potential league: NBA
Existing leagues: NFL, AFL, WNBA
The NBA Hornets were wildly successful from their opening tipoff in 1988. Nearly 24,000 fans crowded into the Charlotte Coliseum game after game, year after year. But the Hornets' owners, in a fit of demographic heresy, fled to New Orleans after failing to get a new arena. Expect the NBA to rectify its mistake by sending a new team Charlotte's way.

Grand Rapids, Mich.
Potential leagues: NHL, NBA
Existing league: AFL
Yes, Grand Rapids. Michigan’s second-largest city is unknown to the big leagues, but it has made its mark in the minors, supporting farm teams avidly in baseball and hockey, and adequately in basketball. Also impressive is Grand Rapids’ income base, which is 80 percent larger than an NHL team would need and 70 percent above the NBA’s threshold.

Washington, D.C.
Potential league: MLB
Existing leagues: NFL, NBA, WNBA, NHL, MLS
Baseball suffers from a lack of good expansion sites, but Washington (part of the Washington-Baltimore economic area) is the exception. It’s true that two sets of Senators fled town, but the D.C. area is much larger and more affluent than it was in those days. Its Virginia suburbs now boast some of America’s highest income levels. A new franchise in, say, Fairfax County could do well indeed.

Las Vegas
Potential leagues: NFL, NHL, NBA
Existing leagues: none
Las Vegas is America’s fastest-growing metro. Its population soared 83 percent in the 1990s, and now stands at 1.7 million. Topping 2 million by 2010 is almost a certainty. Las Vegas clearly has the money to support a team in almost any sport. The issue is who will take a gamble (weak pun intended) on a city dominated by the gaming industry.

Rochester
Potential leagues: MLS, NBA
Existing leagues: none
Rochester dropped out of the spotlight in 1957, when it lost the NBA Royals to Cincinnati. But the region has more than 1 million residents, a strong income base, and it's home to major corporations like Eastman Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb. It also is soccer-crazy, making it especially attractive to MLS. The return of the NBA would be a longer shot, but doable.

The Worst Markets

Phoenix
Regional income deficit: $54 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, AFL, NBA, WNBA, NHL
NBA’s Suns had Phoenix to themselves for 20 years. Their peace was disturbed when football’s Cardinals arrived, followed by a host of others. Phoenix now has six franchises in everything from Major League Baseball to arena football. The area’s residents would need an extra $54 billion in annual income to comfortably support all six teams.

Tampa-St. Petersburg
Regional income deficit: $35 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, AFL, NHL
The Tampa-St. Petersburg area, with a population of 2.5 million, is a mid-sized market by current standards. But it boasts four big-league franchises, which is more than bigger places such as St. Louis and San Diego have. Competition for the sports dollar is so intense that baseball’s Devil Rays and hockey’s Lightning historically have suffered at the gate.

Pittsburgh
Regional income deficit: $33 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, NHL
Recent years have been tough for two of Pittsburgh’s three franchises. The NFL Steelers seem solid. But the Pirates, even with a new stadium, are poster boys for baseball’s small-market woes. And the NHL Penguins almost dissolved in bankruptcy court a few years ago. Additional teams need not apply.

Kansas City
Regional income deficit: $31 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, MLS
Kansas City officials occasionally talk about going after a franchise in the NHL or the NBA. Either would be a big mistake. K.C. already had — and lost — teams in both leagues. And it’s overextended with the franchises it has. The NFL Chiefs are doing well, but the Royals (MLB) and Wizards (MLS) are struggling.

Denver
Regional income deficit: $25 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL, AFL, NBA, NHL, MLS
Denver sports fans are rabid, to be sure. The Rockies have led MLB in attendance almost every year since 1993, and the NFL Broncos and NHL Avalanche routinely sell out. But not everyone is prospering. Just ask the NBA Nuggets and MLS Rapids, both of whom are accustomed to playing in front of thousands of empty seats.

Milwaukee
Regional income deficit: $21 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NBA
Milwaukee is the smallest market in big-league baseball, which just happens to be the most expensive sport of all. The Brewers drew decent crowds to glittering new Miller Park in 2001, but attendance plummeted 30 percent in the stadium’s second year. The NBA Bucks manage to get by, but they aren’t thriving by any means.

Cincinnati
Regional income deficit: $19 billion
Existing leagues: MLB, NFL
Cincinnati has baseball and football teams, but is shut out of both winter sports. That doesn’t mean, however, that it’s an attractive territory for either the NBA or NHL. The Cincinnati metro has just 2 million residents, and its pool of available income is not really sufficient for the teams it has. Add a third franchise, and everyone would suffer.

Buffalo
Income deficit: $11 billion
Existing leagues: NFL, AFL, NHL
Buffalo once fielded big-league teams in football, hockey and basketball — and dreamed of completing the set with an MLB club. Not any more. The NBA Braves are long gone, the baseball fantasy has been dismissed, and hockey’s Sabres are slipping at the box office. That leaves the NFL Bills as the city’s only prosperous franchise.

Indianapolis
Income deficit: $10 billion
Existing leagues: NFL, AFL, NBA, WNBA
Storm clouds are gathering over Indianapolis. The NFL Colts are rumored to be interested in moving to Los Angeles, unless their lease agreement with the city is sweetened. Negotiations are underway. The NBA Pacers, meanwhile, are not a guaranteed sellout, despite Indiana’s legendary love of basketball.

Raleigh-Durham
Income deficit: $9 billion
Existing league: NHL
Perhaps the most ill-advised franchise shift of the 1990s occurred when the NHL’s Hartford Whalers packed up for North Carolina. College basketball is the real big-league sport in Raleigh. Duke, North Carolina and North Carolina State all play within 30 miles of the city. That doesn’t leave enough fans – or money – for hockey’s Hurricanes.

Source: G. Scott Thomas, American City Business Journals


METHODOLOGY
American City Business Journals based its rankings of appealing and overextended sites on income data, as well as several subjective factors, including each market’s history of involvement in a given sport and its proximity to existing teams.

The study also produced a precise score, called a market capacity rating, for each area without a pro team in a specific sport. All ratings were done on a 100-point scale.

A score of 100 points was considered a “strong” rating, 75 to 99 points was “moderate” and anything less than 75 was “weak.”

ACBJ used data on team revenues and ticket prices to estimate that a market needs TPI of at least $54.1 billion to support a franchise in Major League Baseball, the highest figure for any of the major sports. The least expensive is the Arena Football League, requiring a minimum base of $3.2 billion.

The study calculated each market’s remaining capacity for pro sports by taking the area’s TPI and subtracting the amounts needed to support its existing teams, including those in second-echelon leagues and major-college football and basketball.

[KCDevin]

How are the Wizards struggling? They have the 5th highest average attendance in the whole MLS... They are also making money...

That study is just plain stupid... Those idiots think we are still a freaking cowtown...

I mean COMON! We are on our way to becoming one of the midwest's largest cities. We aren't the little passthrough cowtown we used to be.

The Chiefs rock, The Royals suck but are making money, The Wizards might suck but they are making money...

[Maitre D]

I want to punt the Wizards. No one in America cares about MLS.

Chiefs. Royals. NHL/NBA. that's all that a city needs to have a "big city" rep in the country.

Arena football won't cut it. but that doesn't mean I think we CAN support the NHL/NBA....

[KCPowercat]

where did you get the best and worst market stuff?


Royals and Wizards are far from struggling.....if the Royals would put a winner on the field this city would be all over it...I mean we're going to hit 1.5M this year being the worst team in baseball.

Not to mention if baseball would actually attempt to fix itself.

[trailerkid]

I would hardly call some dude thinking of cities and naming reasons why they do/don't need a new franchise a "market study." I'm sure there were plenty of marketing nerds laughing at Lamar Hunt back in the day too.

Please don't forget that KC's pro sports market extends up to Des Moines and Omaha and down to Arkansas. We are a multi-state regional market unlike Pittsburgh, Columbus, San An, or DC. Last Fall I was at a Scheels in Northwest Iowa and Chiefs merchandise was front and center in their "teams shop."

KC will always be underestimated on a national scale. Most judging us don't even know that KC is in Missouri. Remember Enterprise's sports expert who proclaimed that "Kansas couldn't support another pro team?"

[Maitre D]

1. It was my 3rd link.

2. We also spend BIG MONEY on college sports. KSU football, KU hoops cost a ton ($40/ticket PLUS donations at KU!)....MU has a new arena now....is there any disposable income left?

3. Most teams are kept viable by repeat customers (the old 80-20 rule) They exist IN CITIES. Regional is only about 5-10% of the Royals attendance.

4. I desperately want a 3rd team. But looking at that list, I can't reallymake an educated argument FOR it.

[trailerkid]

2. We also spend BIG MONEY on college sports. KSU football, KU hoops cost a ton ($40/ticket PLUS donations at KU!)....MU has a new arena now....is there any disposable income left?

This is one, of many, flawed arguments.

As has been stated before, there are nearly as many KC kids from the Missouri side that go to KU as go to MU. MU is overwhelmingly a satellite of StL similar to KC and KU. And believe it or not, there are many people who are big KU and MU boosters and season ticket holders that don't live in KC or have anything to do with it. MU, KU, and Kstate do not live off of KC alone-- believe that.

Your argument is immediately dismissed when looking at the support for KState, MU and (to a much lesser degree) KU football and the Chiefs. There are even masses of alumni from schools like OU, Nebraska, and Iowa in KC that still strongly support their alma mater. The Chiefs have arguably the strongest fan base in the NFL and their hometown is the heart of one of the stongest football conferences on the planet-- the Big XII.

[WoodDraw]

I want to punt the Wizards. No one in America cares about MLS.

Well that is incredibly stupid. I'm not a huge fan of the arts so I guess we should shut down all of our museums. That makes sense...

[Maitre D]

MU, KU, and Kstate do not live off of KC alone-- believe that.  
.

No, you're wrong: KU definitely lives off KC!  - joco especially.  Just drive to a game sometime and see where the traffic comes from.  Bumper-to-bumper on K-10.

[trailerkid]

MU, KU, and Kstate do not live off of KC alone-- believe that.
.

No, you're wrong: KU definitely lives off KC! - joco especially. Just drive to a game sometime and see where the traffic comes from. Bumper-to-bumper on K-10.

And So Jo Co makes up how much of the entire regional KC market? A couple hundred thousand people?

Besides most of those So Jo Co people just go to KU basketball because it's trendy. Give 'em a new hockey or basketball team and their Leawood asses will be front and center there too.

[Maitre D]

Oh, no question: there are definitely front-runner JOCO's that pack Allen FH due to the success of the team and NO winter sports in KC.

That could change a bit. However, again: only so much dough to go around. When Joe and Sally Schmidt of Leawood plunk down 2500 bones for KU tix, they ain't gonna buy KC Scouts tix.

[trailerkid]

Oh, no question: there are definitely front-runner JOCO's that pack Allen FH due to the success of the team and NO winter sports in KC.

That could change a bit. However, again: only so much dough to go around. When Joe and Sally Schmidt of Leawood plunk down 2500 bones for KU tix, they ain't gonna buy KC Scouts tix.

You're acting like it's an either/or situation...it's clearly not.

Please explain so me why there are thousands and thousands of KState football fans in Jo Co who support the team and have season tickets/go to games as well as thousands and thousands of Chiefs fans in Jo Co who support them/go to games and have season tickets...

I'm sorry, but I'll let AEG, the NHL, and the NBA decide our market's feasibility not internet armchair quarterbacks.

[KCMax]

I care about the MLS. I don't care about NASCAR, so I guess we should blow up the Kansas Speedway.

[staubio]

I want to punt the Wizards. No one in America cares about MLS.

Chiefs. Royals. NHL/NBA. that's all that a city needs to have a "big city" rep in the country.

Arena football won't cut it. but that doesn't mean I think we CAN support the NHL/NBA....

What makes you think that Wizards fans will think to themselves "oh, the Wizards are gone now, I guess I'll buy baseball tickets instead." Losing the Wiz won't cause all of that disposable income to be redirected.

The Wiz appeal to a different market. Regardless of what your opinions of which sports afford "big city reps," people like the Wizards in KC and support them. Punt the Royals -- at least the Wizards can win.

[chrizow]

first of all, who cares if the MLS doesnt give a city a "big city rep?" it's a great sport, and a country the size of the US should have a reputable soccer league, given that soccer is the only true "world sport."

as for NHL tickets and JoCo-ers, i am sure some JoCo-ers would buy season tickets, and some wouldn't. it's really that simple. people buy what they want to buy. if Josie JoCo has KU season tickets and is also a hockey fan, she'll probably buy those tickets too. if she isn't, then she won't. likewise, some MO suburban folks will buy NHL tickets as well as MU bball and football tickets.

clearly pitt is simply revealing his own bias. HE wouldn't buy KU tickets in addition to NHL tickets, so of course the rest of Leawood wouldn't either.

that being said, however, i am pretty skeptical about the interest in hockey season tickets in this town. "competing" NCAA bball teams are the least of the NHL's worries. are there THAT many hardcore fans that would really want a season ticket? if so, i've never met them. heheh.

[hartliss]

I read that KC has the highest NHL TV ratings for any non-NHL market(based on one of the websites that pittsburghparoyal posted above). That should say something, shouldn't it?

[KC0KEK]

Please don't forget that KC's pro sports market extends up to Des Moines and Omaha and down to Arkansas. We are a multi-state regional market unlike Pittsburgh, Columbus, San An, or DC.

That won't help an NHL team because that league doesn't have a lucrative TV contract, so its teams are much more dependent on butts in seats. Somebody from Omaha or Des Moines might come to KC to attend a few games per year, but the bulk of season and individual ticket sales will have to come from the KC metro. So the issue boils down to whether the KC metro, not the multi-state market, can support an NHL team.

[QueSi2Opie]

The Wizards might suck but they are making money...

The Wizards don't suck...they're in second place in a 10 team league. Their attendance is 5th!

[QueSi2Opie]

I want to punt the Wizards. No one in America cares about MLS.

I want to punt YOU! I'm a huge soccer supporter and follow the game at home and abroad. Every team in MLS will have soccer-specific stadiums by the year 2008...including the 4 expansion teams in 2005-'06. Who gets passionate about a sport that nobody else in the world plays (baseball, football)? The United States is currently ranked in the Top 10 in FIFA's world rankings and this country will only continue to improve at the National Team level. You can thank MLS for that! As of now, both soccer and basketball are the two most played and popular sports in the U.S. at the youth level.

[GRID]

Those stats are totally worthless.

KC could easily support another team and supports the teams it has comparatively well.