OFFICIAL - Bartle Hall Expansion construction

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:45 am

woohoo! Ballroom is approved!
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 221527.htm

aknowledgeableperson · Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:49 am

If you look at KCDEVIN's map 14th Street between Baltimore and Wyandotte would be the best place to build an arena if a new arena is built downtown. That way not only can it be a arena for standalone events but could supplement the Convention Center. It could be used for general sessions, additional exhibit space, and so on. That way with the additional events the arena would have more purpose than to have the Big 12 Tournament once every five years or so.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:28 am

but we want to draw more people to KC Live and the CBD too. You can't have that at that location. They would have to walk a longer distance and 13th and Grand is the best spot, right in KC Live.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:31 am

I think I'll trust people like Sasaki to help decide where a good location would be. An arena on Grand will be a perfect bookend to the Live development and still be very functional for conventions.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:40 am

also, that isn't "my" map, I found it on this site

aknowledgeableperson · Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:09 pm

13th and Grand would not be a good location to support the Convention Center. Too far. Have you ever been to a convention? Yes, big conventions have a lot of walking but when you go from general session to individual meetings, or even lunch and dinner, then the walk would be too time consuming. And at 13th and Grand that is too far from the hotels.
To have the arena next to the Convention Center and to go over Baltimore and tie into the Empire Theater would be great. The theater could act as one of the entrances of the arena.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:40 pm

But the focus on this is not the convention center, it is downtown.

aknowledgeableperson · Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:56 am

KCDevin wrote:But the focus on this is not the convention center, it is downtown.

Where do you think the Convention Center is?
Besides, having it next to the Convention Center will give the arena a better chance to succeed with the additional usage it will receive. Having it a few blocks east will not help the arena. Bring the proposed new hot spot west to take in the block between Main and Walnut, 14th and South and it connects quite easily. And it also ties in with the Block headquarters and associated development.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:02 am

You need to take a few urban planning classes Mr. Knowledge. There is a reason you don't want multiple large scale, yet sporadically used buildings all connected together. It creates vast dead space and leave no room nor support for retail and other street life.

We need street life Downtown and having an anchor system of major venues surrounding an entertainment district is one way you create that street life.

14th and Grand is not far from 14th & Central at all, not even for lazy KC.

aknowledgeableperson · Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:52 pm

GRID wrote:You need to take a few urban planning classes Mr. Knowledge. There is a reason you don't want multiple large scale, yet sporadically used buildings all connected together. It creates vast dead space and leave no room nor support for retail and other street life.

We need street life Downtown and having an anchor system of major venues surrounding an entertainment district is one way you create that street life.

14th and Grand is not far from 14th & Central at all, not even for lazy KC.

Maybe you need some urban planning courses.
First, the Convention Center is utilized quite often - not sporadically - and for many kinds of events. There are public shows like the Sportshow and the Car Show, UMKC Basketball, wedding receptions, family shows, meetings, plays, and concerts along with the conventions. And the hotels add many other events that utilize their meeting rooms. And don't forget the Folly Theater. True, some are small events but it is activity, especially on weekends and nights. So it is already an entertainment center although not as varied as the one proposed a few blocks east.
Second, the key to a vibrant downtown is having people LIVING downtown. And not just the very few in the new lofts we currently have. Look at New York, Chicago, and other cities with an active downtown - people live there. What our downtown needs is about 20,000 to 25,000 people living inside the loop or very close to it. Gets that first then you might have a successful entertainment district besides the Convention Center

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:58 pm

plus, that area needs to be left for future expansions of bartle hall, it won't stop expanding after its next one ya know...
And what would we do with the rest of the lots, etc... in that part of the south loop?
BTW, the longlines building needs a nicer structure next to it so it won't look so ugly

KCforumer · Post by **KCforumer** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:27 am

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
GRID wrote:You need to take a few urban planning classes Mr. Knowledge. There is a reason you don't want multiple large scale, yet sporadically used buildings all connected together. It creates vast dead space and leave no room nor support for retail and other street life.

We need street life Downtown and having an anchor system of major venues surrounding an entertainment district is one way you create that street life.

14th and Grand is not far from 14th & Central at all, not even for lazy KC.
Maybe you need some urban planning courses.

GRID is an urban planner, I believe.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:57 am

As a stated before, I'll trust the advice of Sasaki and Associates...I'm pretty sure they know what's going on. An arena when used in conventions is usually used for few events to get everybody together at one time....hence not making it as huge of a deal to be next door to the convention center.

aknowledgeableperson · Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:28 pm

Almost all of the consultants I have worked with say what you pay them to say. Just being a realist here. True, an arena next to the convention center would be utilized seldom with a convention but it would be useful to have. Who knows, although it was a done deal that the FFA was going to leave KC, if an arena of the proposed size was next to the CC then it would have been harder for the FFA to depart. And you know what kind of street traffic the FFA would have been. And having the arena three blocks away would not have helped that much.
If the arena was built right then the floor space could be used as additional exhibit space. Something that would have come in handy with the Fire Chiefs conventions, especially with the arena's high ceiling. Again, having an arena 3 blocks away would not have helped.
Having an arena with entrance doors at 14th and Main puts it closer to H&R Block and that related development than having it at 14th and Grand. The block that contains the State Unemployment building would be perfect for an open area.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:46 pm

I tend to disagree, having an arena 3 blocks away would have helped with those specific conventions....is there any real evidence it wouldn't have worked for those conventions because they were 3 blocks away?

Louisville also lost the FAA despite an arena attached to the KY expo center area.

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:52 pm

if, as a knowdelgableperson says, consultants say what you pay them to say, then why are people hiring them? I would think that one would want a consultant to be honest with you.

KC_JAYHAWK · Post by **KC_JAYHAWK** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:33 pm

Where did the FFA go after leaving Kentucky?

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:36 pm

I believe they went to Indy this year?

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:59 pm

The distance between the convention complex and the proposed arena site at 13th and Grand will seem a lot smaller after KC Live is built and the area between the two sites is filled in. Distances seem a lot longer than they are when you have big stretches of vacant lots, parking lots, or empty buildings.

aknowledgeableperson · Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:08 pm

tat2kc wrote:if, as a knowdelgableperson says, consultants say what you pay them to say, then why are people hiring them? I would think that one would want a consultant to be honest with you.

They are hired to give some credence to what you want, to convince others that your stance is correct. If Barnes says an arena will work at a particular location not many people would be convinced. But if she has a consultant says it is so then more people would be convinced it is correct. I do not think that Barnes would release the report if it did not favor her stance.

One thing to consider. Very few people are currently in favor of building an arena right now. Mostly Barnes, KC Sports Commission, and the sports fanatics thinking that KC will have the exclusive on the BIG 12. The majority of the Council and the rest of the City see a need but other priorities go to the front of the list. However, the people of Kansas City have recently voted in favor of a Hotel/Motel and Restaurant tax increases to support the Convention Center. If the financing of an arena goes to a vote of the people I believe they will support a tax increase if goes to support the Convention Center. I am still not convinced that the general population sees the need of KC Live development.

We are all entitled to our opinions.