KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[markf]

Advocrat,

I agree that commuter rail might be the best start.  We may not have the density for light rail, but we certainly have the sprawl for commuter rail.

It's just my opinion but I wonder if Gardner is missing a golden opportunity with the inter-modal hub that BNSF wants to put in.  They could ask BNSF for a commuter rail line into downtown KC and in one step jump over Olathe and Lenexa as the preferred Kansas suburb in which to live.

http://www.forsythe4kc.com/2006/07/long ... ning.shtml

[advocrat]

Advocrat,

I agree that commuter rail might be the best start.  We may not have the density for light rail, but we certainly have the sprawl for commuter rail.

It's just my opinion but I wonder if Gardner is missing a golden opportunity with the inter-modal hub that BNSF wants to put in.  They could ask BNSF for a commuter rail line into downtown KC and in one step jump over Olathe and Lenexa as the preferred Kansas suburb in which to live.

http://www.forsythe4kc.com/2006/07/long ... ning.shtml

My downtown streetcar route idea was made in keeping with the theme of this thread. But, I am really interrested in commuter rail, which I think is critical to mitigating Kansas City's unrelenting sprawl. I mentioned in another thread the news about Albuquerque's "Railrunner" commuter service which began operations on July 14. I hope that someday Kansas City develops its own.

back in June I shared an idea for commuter rail lines in Kansas City, a pretty ambitious plan (I admit) but no more elaborate than what a about 20 other cities now have.  The following is a repost, and it is not meant to compete with the ideas being shared about downtown streecars or BRT. I really just want to see improved rapid transit that allows commuters to avoid the Interstates, the tractor trailor rigs and $6 a gallon gasoline.

I am very interested in every proposal, idea and comment about light-rail and commuter rail and consider opinions of proponents and critics as objectively as possible. I can’t understand why anyone would object to, or try to stop the development of light/commuter rail services in Kansas City. Our present highway system may be ok, but it isn’t perfect, at best it is just less stressed than other major metro areas. Improvements are being made but pressure continues to mount. And fuel prices and maintenance are taking a toll on us.

I think it is possible to start small and develop an effective commuter rail system by using expanded AMTRAK service for morning and afternoon commuters. AMTRAK currently runs two trains daily out of Kansas City Union Station, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon eastbound for St. Louis. The morning train sits idle at Union station overnight after completing the return run from St. Louis.

If this 200 seat train were positioned overnight in Gardner (at the BNSF fascility) or Olathe it could make a rush hour run from Olathe into Union Station, making stops in Olathe, Lenexa, Merriam and Rosedale, and into Union Station. Eastbound stops for outbound commuters or intercity travelers would be made in Independence, Noland Road, Lee’s Summit and Pleasant Hill. The increased number of commuter will boost the overall revenue of this morning train.

If AMTRAK scheduled two additional morning and afternoon trains from Pleasant Hill, a complete circuit for westbound rush hour service would then be complete.

It would work like this:

        Morning                                                        Afternoon
Gardner                Pleasant Hill                      >St.Louis            >Topeka
Olathe                  Lee’s Summit                    Pleasant Hill        Lawrence   
Lenexa                  Noland Road                      Lee’s Summit      DeSoto
Merriam                Independence                    Noland Road        Shawnee at I-435
Rosedale              Union Station                      Independence    I-635/Turner
Union Station        I-635 Turner                        Union Station    Union Station
Independence      Shawnee at I-435                Rosedale            Independence
Noland Road        DeSoto                                Merriam            Noland Road
Lee’s Summit        Lawrence                              Lenexa              Lee’s Summit             
Pleasant Hill        >Topeka                                Olathe              Pleasant Hill
>St.Louis                                                          Gardner          >St. Louis

Timetables for all of this can be synchronized for intercity passenger service that already exists, even though this adds an intercity train to Topeka. This requires no great deal of public funding for a good handful of suburban platforms at points along this route. More service to other parts of the metro could build from this start.

Railroads, Kansas City (metro) and AMTRAK must cooperate, but this could be an easy and very economical start to improving transportation options for the greater community and commuting good.

[markf]

If this 200 seat train were positioned overnight in Gardner (at the BNSF fascility) or Olathe it could make a rush hour run from Olathe into Union Station, making stops in Olathe, Lenexa, Merriam and Rosedale, and into Union Station. Eastbound stops for outbound commuters or intercity travelers would be made in Independence, Noland Road, Lee’s Summit and Pleasant Hill. The increased number of commuter will boost the overall revenue of this morning train.

I totally missed your post!  Sorry about that.  Credit where credit is due.

From what I understand a commuter line would have to have it's own roadbed because the logistics of sharing traffic with freight is too difficult.  DaveKCMO commented on my blog about no ridership and sharing the line with communities in between like you mentioned.  I wasn't implying that Gardner have an express straight in to downtown but since they would be the ones brokering this deal they should bet the most say in route, development rights, etc.  As far as no ridership, probably true at first but it wouldn't take long for an urban village to spring up around Gardner's train station.  The ridership would come.

Of course this is all just pie in the sky and the powers that be would scoff at such lofty ideas.

[dangerboy]

Most American commuter rail does indeed run on freight tracks, as those are usually the only tracks remaining.  Even Chicago's extensive Metra system uses mostly leased freight tracks.  It would be almost impossible to acquire right of way in a built environment.  Every study of commuter rail in KC has been on existing freight lines.

[advocrat]

I totally missed your post!  Sorry about that.  Credit where credit is due.

From what I understand a commuter line would have to have it's own roadbed because the logistics of sharing traffic with freight is too difficult.  DaveKCMO commented on my blog about no ridership and sharing the line with communities in between like you mentioned.  I wasn't implying that Gardner have an express straight in to downtown but since they would be the ones brokering this deal they should bet the most say in route, development rights, etc.  As far as no ridership, probably true at first but it wouldn't take long for an urban village to spring up around Gardner's train station.  The ridership would come.

Of course this is all just pie in the sky and the powers that be would scoff at such lofty ideas.

I know, I know,

There are very strong forces that fight the idea of commuter rail and sometimes I feel like I'm the only Advocrat, but as far a sharing the rail with BNSF, that is exactly what is being done in Albuquerque.

This link shows "Railrunner" with it's roadrunner logo, and the site has the enitre development plan. This plan was embraced supported and developed in a city much smaller than ours. I scratch me head over how they can, and we can't.....

http://www.nmrailrunner.com/

[markf]

In my opinion the reason New Mexico can do it and we can't is that KC is held hostage by the "that's the way we've always done it" crowd.  Creative thinking and continually asking "why not?" has not been a feature of our leadership for many years. 

[DaveKCMO]

Most American commuter rail does indeed run on freight tracks, as those are usually the only tracks remaining.  Even Chicago's extensive Metra system uses mostly leased freight tracks.  It would be almost impossible to acquire right of way in a built environment.  Every study of commuter rail in KC has been on existing freight lines.

true 'dat, but in this instance, BNSF should have plenty right-o'-way between gardner and union station to add maybe just one more track to allow more frequent sidings (allows passenger trains to pass a freight train). it's an interesting idea to leverage with the railroad lobby that's gonna come down hard on this little town. negotiate or fight 'til the end???

[DaveKCMO]

one other thing... the only snag that keeps the commuter rail thing from happening right now is the perception that speed is key. most voluntary commuter train riders will tell you that they enjoy the reduced stress and lower cost (gas, parking, maintenance) of taking the train. the I-35 corridor study from awhile back was obsessed with improving the tracks at such-and-such million dollars. even if it took an hour to get from olathe to kansas city, you'd probably have enough riders to start a few round trips on weekdays.

[advocrat]

true 'dat, but in this instance, BNSF should have plenty right-o'-way between gardner and union station to add maybe just one more track to allow more frequent sidings (allows passenger trains to pass a freight train). it's an interesting idea to leverage with the railroad lobby that's gonna come down hard on this little town. negotiate or fight 'til the end???

I cannot quote a published source, but I have railbuff friends who are tuned to this subject, and, I believe I have read in some MARC source or somehwere else that BNSF categorically embraced the concept of the I-35 commuter rail corridor. My railbuff friends also say that this will never happen because the Halls/Nichols/Kempers zand other power brokers are either not supportive or opposed to commuter rail.  The voters seem to swing their majority vote to the opponents position with even the mention of words like"bi-state" , "claychastain", "Northtown opposition."

[DaveKCMO]

My railbuff friends also say that this will never happen because the Halls/Nichols/Kempers zand other power brokers are either not supportive or opposed to commuter rail.  The voters seem to swing their majority vote to the opponents position with even the mention of words like"bi-state" , "claychastain", "Northtown opposition."

what's the logic? for the life of me i can't see it. does that make kc too much of a "city" instead of a "town"? throw me a bone!

[moderne]

  The latest RTA newletter says the streetcar restoration is complete and will rolling downtown Nov 13th.  Obviously that deadline has passed.

[GRID]

I’m sure this is one hell of a long shot, but if KC were to somehow get this project funded with the Obama stimulus money, then I will take back everything I ever said about Funkhouser, that is if he played a major role in making this happen.

http://www.marc.org/transportation/stim ... sp?PID=729

http://www.marc.org/transportation/stim ... ojects.asp

[ComandanteCero]

so i guess they are hoping the feds would put up all the money for the starter line?

[GRID]

Well, it makes a lot of sense.

It’s a project that will instantly inject incredible amounts of economic activity into the region and continue to do so for a long time directly and indirectly.

It’s a project that will be almost impossible to fund with local money as you will never get the entire city of KCMO vote yes to fund a LRT starter line.

It’s a re-investment in existing infrastructure by assisting in bringing back an aging urban core vs building some new interchange in some suburb.

KCMO should make this a top priority.  They could even use an overlay tax in the RCP to bring some local money to the table.

KCMO could then go to voters for other issues that will be easier to get voter support like sewers, sidewalks, roads and bridges.

Will any of this happen?

I seriously doubt it.

[DaveKCMO]

wow.

[enough]

note that the light rail starter money is on the ata's wish list, not the city's list.  the city didn't include anything for transit on its list -- even though the city provides nearly two-thirds of the ata's annual budget.

while the ata put a light rail project -- $400 million, i think -- on its list, they appear not to be talking seriously about anything other than brt upgrades coming out of the alternatives analysis.

but then again, maybe the light rail citizen task force will be reconvened -- or maybe they will reconvene themselves -- and convince the ata and the city council otherwise.

stimulus money for light rail in kansas city -- or even upgraded brt -- is a long shot, imho.

[KCMax]

While a project could not begin in 90 days, a fixed-guideway project could move forward in relatively short order.

Could this really happen in short order? I have my doubts. Seems like they still have a lot of obstacles they would need to overcome before work could really get done.

It would be interesting if the bad economy ends up accelerating light rail and helping us get it faster than if the voters had approved last fall's plan due to the stimulus plan.

[DaveKCMO]

at a minimum it keeps us on the radar.

[dangerboy]

I don't see how this is anything more than a place holder, or like Dave said to keep us on the radar.  The Feds have been clear that these need projects must already be designed, and just waiting on the money to start building.  I don't see how LRT could qualify under any criteria currently being discusses in DC.

The only thing I could see possible is that it's an earmark instead of part of a funding formula.  And even then, I can't imagine the Fed would fund this without a local tax to match it.

Kit Bond, if you are listening this would be an excellent grand finale pork barrel project.

[staubio]

I don't see how this is anything more than a place holder, or like Dave said to keep us on the radar.  The Feds have been clear that these need projects must already be designed, and just waiting on the money to start building.  I don't see how LRT could qualify under any criteria currently being discusses in DC.

I know that the stimulus is targeting "shovel-ready" projects but it seems like several of those listed on the city's Christmas list have outstanding design elements.