KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[langosta]

If only there was a way to push cars onto Grand at S. Crown Center instead of continuing North on Main.

[normalthings]

Some cities in Europe couple their Urbos 3 streetcars together for added capacity. Wonder how much of an additional cost that would be.


Cross posting to this thread.

I also wonder how much of a lift it would be to use a 5 body train on the existing platforms. If you fit the back 2 doors on the existing platform, you preserve the same number of level boarding doors as there are today. You can then just convert car parking or unused spaces above the existing platform to sidewalk space. It wouldn’t be level boarding for those 2 front doors but the front and back doors aren’t level today anyways. Biggest problem spot I have seen so far are the north loop stations and the driveways for the adjacent parking lots. We should be removing driveways anyways so this may be an opportunity to achieve two goals at once.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I think about seeing cars in or being stopped while riding a streetcar a streetcar because a car pulled into the bit of unused lane right before or after a stop. This plan might be able to reduce that phenomenon.

[earthling]

^Would that stick out into the intersection at some stops?

[normalthings]

^Would that stick out into the intersection at some stops?

The cab module on the 8 door, 5 module trains pictured above is the same length as the ones of our 3 module trams. So if you can pull through so that the back 2 doors are at the existing platform, you will clear every intersection as far as I can tell. The main issue becomes getting people off/on the first two platforms. IMHO, an expanded sidewalk requiring passengers to make an ADA compliant step is the best value solution.

Schematic for the 12 door, 5 module trains with some metric dimensions.

[DaveKCMO]

You would have to retrofit and relocate downtown stations to support longer cars.

[KCPowercat]

Just kc solution it and put up signs.

[normalthings]

You would have to retrofit and relocate downtown stations to support longer cars.

Yes, but unless I am missing something it doesn't seem like that extreme of a retrofit is needed. Just expanding the sidewalks out as far as the existing platform really. What stations would need to be relocated?

[flyingember]

The argument is we can’t run longer trains without having level platforms of the new length. It’s not wrong.

Let’s say the level boarding is maintained at is. That won’t work.

At 12th NB the space to expand is to the north of the stop so the level section would be to the rear of the vehicle.

When you reach 5th/Walnut the space it would be to the west so the level section would be to the front of the train

So someone requiring level boarding couldn’t pick a door and stick with it for all possible trips. It makes the situation far more complex than it needs to be

[GRID]

I think you are much better off getting traffic off the tracks and increasing frequency.

KCMO needs to figure out a way to get people to use other streets downtown besides the streets the trams are on. Most of the streets in downtown KC are totally empty, including Grand.

Make it hard to drive down Main for several blocks. Cars should on only be on Main for a block to access a garage or something.

STOP building public parking in the river market and close off the core streets of the river market to non-residents on weekends so the trams can get through there. There are dozens of empty garages downtown and plenty of street parking in the crossroads for people to use and ride the streetcar to the river market.

Cars are going to end up ruining the River Market when that could be a really neat area. Traffic on the streetcar tracks is also going to keep the streetcar from reaching high frequencies because they bunch up in the river market and at downtown stop lights when events are going on.

[FangKC]

I never understood putting the streetcar on Main through the Loop and Crossroads. I always thought Walnut was a better choice. There was less car traffic on it anyway.

[DaveKCMO]

I never understood putting the streetcar on Main through the Loop and Crossroads. I always thought Walnut was a better choice. There was less car traffic on it anyway.

Destinations and southern expansion. Pretty simple.

[FangKC]

Well, it could have switched over to Main around 20th Street, or up that old viaduct. It's just one block. What destinations would have been shut out?

[DaveKCMO]

Well, it could have switched over to Main around 20th Street, or up that old viaduct. It's just one block. What destinations would have been shut out?

Jobs, residents. A block makes a difference and turns/diversions lengthen travel time, especially for rail. I assume you've experienced the full loop around the City Market?

[flyingember]

A block makes a difference and turns/diversions lengthen travel time, especially for rail.

In the case of Walnut, it wouldn't have made any difference for track length.

Original studied route options on page 39:
https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... h-2012.pdf

The loop exists because they couldn't engineer the 5th to Delaware WB to SB turn that worked with the grade and space available so the loop was created instead


If you add up the total amount of track following Main with the loop it's equal to the amount of track to follow Walnut through 20th without the loop and the original ending point of 3rd/Grand.

An extra block worth of double track on 20th is equal to the extra block to get from Walnut to Main.

[alejandro46]

Longer distance streetcars headed outside of the urban core should have longer trainsets where the space for stations may be greater, frequency less and more room for bikes and seating. The best route is to keep the current size and increase frequency. I don't think it's a problem where the streetcar is exceeding capacity and somebody had to wait for the next one.

[flyingember]

Longer distance streetcars headed outside of the urban core should have longer trainsets where the space for stations may be greater, frequency less and more room for bikes and seating.

That makes no sense.

(Assuming 150 person vehicles)

This just reduced the overall capacity of the system because a vehicle holding 300 people has to offload onto two trains holding 150 people before where the platform size shrinks. The system has to run four trains per 300 people because it needs space available for people to transfer to. Also, potentially half the train has to wait an extra 15 minutes more than the other half.

Far better to run smaller vehicles at a greater frequency and they don't need to transfer and can follow the entire route.

[normalthings]

Smaller vehicles, more frequency = higher operations cost in the long run. Also makes it hard to time your ride if it’s likely the train coming past is already at capacity.

I would be surprised if the capital cost of a a few larger vehicles is more than the cost of a lot of small vehicles.

[flyingember]

Smaller vehicles, more frequency = higher operations cost in the long run. Also makes it hard to time your ride if it’s likely the train coming past is already at capacity.

You're arguing against what the authority already found to be better financially

Trains were coming by at capacity so it bought trains and runs more vehicles at peak at a higher operational cost.

[alejandro46]

Longer distance streetcars headed outside of the urban core should have longer trainsets where the space for stations may be greater, frequency less and more room for bikes and seating.

That makes no sense.

(Assuming 150 person vehicles)

This just reduced the overall capacity of the system because a vehicle holding 300 people has to offload onto two trains holding 150 people before where the platform size shrinks. The system has to run four trains per 300 people because it needs space available for people to transfer to. Also, potentially half the train has to wait an extra 15 minutes more than the other half.

Far better to run smaller vehicles at a greater frequency and they don't need to transfer and can follow the entire route.

Also consider that CAF also makes various lines of Urbos 3 which have higher top speeds and run on boagies vs. load flat like the streetcar. Enabling a hybrid-center running type of system in certain areas versus the true on-street system. But agreed, it would be smoother to just have the same units traverse the entire system.

[flyingember]

Enabling a hybrid-center running type of system in certain areas versus the true on-street system.

Our current trains can do this. There's no enabling required and the 2014 study looked at this for NKC.


http://www.nkc.org/UserFiles/Servers/Se ... 0small.pdf
page 90