We need a new airport!!!

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Highlander
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by Highlander »

im2kull wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Please source the 90% stat
It's been well documented in this thread, among others that connecting PAX account for just 5-10% of all travelers at KCI in an average year. That has been a steady trend for the last 35 years. It makes you wonder..should we really rebuild an entire airport at a cost in the Billions of dollars, for an extreme minority of the users of said airport?
HISTORICAL O&D AND CONNECTING ENPLANED PASSENGERS
ORIGINATING CONNECTING TOTAL
1990 3,297,610 95.9% 141,051 4.1% 3,438,661 100.0%
1991 3,155,360 90.8% 317,973 9.2% 3,473,333 100.0%
1992 3,334,777 89.9% 376,068 10.1% 3,710,845 100.0%
1993 3,572,122 90.0% 398,232 10.0% 3,970,354 100.0%
1994 3,973,561 89.0% 492,414 11.0% 4,465,975 100.0%
1995 4,279,896 90.2% 463,997 9.8% 4,743,893 100.0%
1996 4,591,340 91.0% 452,974 9.0% 5,044,314 100.0%
1997 4,828,188 87.1% 713,382 12.9% 5,541,570 100.0%
1998 4,852,448 86.9% 734,189 13.1% 5,586,637 100.0%
1999 4,984,354 84.2% 935,225 15.8% 5,919,579 100.0%
2000 5,069,362 83.4% 1,010,933 16.6% 6,080,295 100.0%
2001 4,822,825 82.3% 1,036,331 17.7% 5,859,156 100.0%
2002 4,467,232 86.0% 724,584 14.0% 5,191,816 100.0%
2003 4,405,089 90.8% 445,182 9.2% 4,850,271 100.0%
2004 4,610,998 91.7% 416,612 8.3% 5,027,610 100.0%
2005 4,706,304 93.0% 356,535 7.0% 5,062,839 100.0%
2006 5,000,568 91.5% 464,684 8.5% 5,465,252 100.0%
Sources: Federal Aviation Administration, Terminal Area Forecast; U.S. DOT, Schedule T-100; Official Airline
Guide; Landrum & Brown analysis.
H:\KCI Master Plan\Master Plan\Aviation Forecast\Master Sheets and Data\[MCI Master Sheet.xls] Enpax History

The little numbers in Bold, that's the % of connecting passengers we carry. Less than 10% each year on average. Let that one sink in for a moment before making further remarks..
It's a new terminal, not a new airport and the cost is about a billion, not billions. The reason for replacing the terminal has been the same for the last decade - obsolescence, not facilitating transfers.

That said, about 11 million passengers go through KCI in a given year. If a mere 5% were transfers, that is 550,000 passengers per year (or about 1500 per day or nearly 100 per hour of airport operation). Double that if the number of transfers go to 10% - and the percentages you present are actually consistently closer to 10% which is about 3000 transfers per day. It really isn't that small of a percentage and in actual numbers, that's a substantial number of transfers. And that number is undoubtedly constrained by the huge pain in the ass it is to transfer at KCI. So those that do transfer are probably unaware of the issues or just don't have a choice. A larger number of transfers of course would almost certainly occur if KCI wasn't indeed the pain in the ass that it is to transfer so the suggestion that we shouldn't design an airport to alleviate one of the most damning problems of the present airport is really not very logical. In any event, it's moot - the sheer number of transfers at KCI is not trivial - it's a big number. We go to great expense to require handicap parking and handicap ramps in every facility in the US to facilitate an even smaller percentage of the population.

But that's not really the issue - the issue is that KCI is a cramped, uncomfortable, inefficient and obsolete airport that in every way measurable, is simply not up to modern standards.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

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"Airlines are more efficient now than ever. 20 years ago airlines would fly empty planes from point A to B,"

Once flew on a Sunday afternoon leaving KCI to Toronto through Detroit. From KCI to Detroit there were about a dozen passengers so plenty of room to spread out.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

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aknowledgeableperson wrote:"Airlines are more efficient now than ever. 20 years ago airlines would fly empty planes from point A to B,"

Once flew on a Sunday afternoon leaving KCI to Toronto through Detroit. From KCI to Detroit there were about a dozen passengers so plenty of room to spread out.
It sucks for the airline to have empty seats, but as a passenger I love it. I'm a taller guy at 6' 4" and sitting in today's coach seats is pretty uncomfortable, especially if I get a middle seat. So those empty planes allow me to get a whole row and I can stretch my legs across the seats.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by hartliss »

I am sure most of you heard about the water main break at terminal B. City had to bring in porta potties to help....ouch.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by cityscape »

hartliss wrote:I am sure most of you heard about the water main break at terminal B. City had to bring in porta potties to help....ouch.
"Merry Christmas! Shitter was full!" should be KCI's new slogan this upcoming season

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by mean »

We should sell KCI's naming rights to Johnny on the Spot.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

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mean wrote:We should sell KCI's naming rights to Johnny on the Spot.
Just ratcheting up the discomfort factor as the election approaches.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by flyingember »

I bet the porta potties are worth some votes. What that means in terms of percentage, no idea.

It sells the idea that the current terminals are slowly wearing out.

The city couldn't have planned that better.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by shaffe »

flyingember wrote: The city couldn't have planned that better.
I'm pretty sure they did plan it. Look for the circle drives to need repaved right as winter starts, just a few weeks before a vote.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by mean »

Highlander wrote:
mean wrote:We should sell KCI's naming rights to Johnny on the Spot.
Just ratcheting up the discomfort factor as the election approaches.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. I've lived through local political consultants making obviously false shit up to smear me, so it wouldn't be a huge stretch to imagine that they could conceive of a scheme that involved shutting down toilets to push the narrative the way they want. They will do anything, with no regard to truth. This is just the reality we live in. And I want a new terminal, but having been a victim of the Glorioso Machine I can't help but wonder if this is just some new fabrication they came up with to sell the narrative.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by flyingember »

Just shutting down toilets wouldn't work.

If there wasn't water repair work done it would be discoverable through a sunshine request. The election is further out than the allowed response timeline for these requests.

There's also the part where people have to do the work in any fake records and this has to paper trail to payroll too. You can't keep everyone quiet. Someone would brag they or their spouse got paid to do nothing.

About all that could be faked would be a busted line being done on purpose. With old water lines citywide that wouldn't be impossible but seems unlikely relative to the odds something just broke.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

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Pretty dumb of the city manager to try and use the water main break as a new kci terminal reason...he is in charge of a city with 100s of water main break a year...each very inconvenient.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

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mean wrote:
Highlander wrote:
mean wrote:We should sell KCI's naming rights to Johnny on the Spot.
Just ratcheting up the discomfort factor as the election approaches.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. I've lived through local political consultants making obviously false shit up to smear me, so it wouldn't be a huge stretch to imagine that they could conceive of a scheme that involved shutting down toilets to push the narrative the way they want. They will do anything, with no regard to truth. This is just the reality we live in. And I want a new terminal, but having been a victim of the Glorioso Machine I can't help but wonder if this is just some new fabrication they came up with to sell the narrative.
Sarcastic. I don't doubt your personal story or that a lot of crap happens within the realm ofg politics these days (we witness that on a daily basis). But the problem with trying to manipulate situations at KCI is that there are so many entities involved including the airlines themselves that it would be very difficult to pull off - too many questions would be asked.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

But we love our conspiracy theories.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by mean »

To be clear, I don't think there was actually a toilet conspiracy. I'm just jaded enough to think it's possible.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

Crazy to think these buildings wouldn't have been designed with backup utilities .

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by ztonyg »

This whole debate is absolutely ridiculous.

#1.) The title to this thread is misleading. It should be "we need a new airport terminal." For some reason, lots of people seem to get the idea that the entire airport needs to be replaced. Ridiculous ideas such as relocating it near Lee's Summit or Johnson County have been thrown around. The airport itself has a significant amount of infrastructure apart from the terminals (roadways, runways, cargo facilities, hangars, rental car facilities, hotels, utilities, etc.) that are not outdated and do not need to be replaced. Rebuilding / creating all of that infrastructure somewhere else would easily dwarf the cost of a new terminal multiple times over.

#2.) Kansas City is the ONLY major city in the country where this type of debate even occurs over capital improvements to its primary airport. In almost every other city, as the airport improvements have zero effect on local taxpayer dollars (as they're paid through user fees / federal grants / etc.), the airport authority has the ability to pursue capital improvements without all of this political song and dance. It generally creates a better experience for passengers as the airport is able to do what's in the best interests of itself as well as its customers (the airlines and passengers). Sure, there have been a few expansions which ended up not making much sense in the long run (Cincinnati, Memphis, Pittsburgh, and Washington Dulles come to mind) but all expansion projects made sense at the time that they were performed with the state of the airline industry at those times. To be fair, nothing proposed to KCI in any way resembles what was built in Cincinnati, Memphis, or Pittsburgh. The city needs to make sure (if it can) that any future airport capital improvements are not subject to a public vote or it will be severely hampered to accommodate changes in the airline industry.

3.) The current terminals are functionally obsolete. It would be a huge waste of money to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the existing terminal complex. Plus, if a new terminal allowed for expanded airline service, it benefits the regional economy.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

To your #2 point....the airport is funded the exact same way here...the reason we have to vote on it is the State of Missouri Hancock Amendment.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by WoodDraw »

Well the leadership has been horrible here. They're putting it to a vote even if they have private funding. I think the mo supreme Court also held that quasi governmental fees didn't count towards the Hancock act. But I could be wrong on that.

A complete lack of good leadership and governance here. They should all be embarrassed. At least they got their bonds to play with though.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by Highlander »

WoodDraw wrote:Well the leadership has been horrible here. They're putting it to a vote even if they have private funding. I think the mo supreme Court also held that quasi governmental fees didn't count towards the Hancock act. But I could be wrong on that.

A complete lack of good leadership and governance here. They should all be embarrassed. At least they got their bonds to play with though.
I thought it was a successful petition initiative that necessitated a vote?

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